Plugins BodyLanguage

[CheesyFX]

Hi there,

Sorry if this was already asked - if there's a search function in this forum I could not find it.

Anyway Bodylanguage sure is a banger AFAIC *but* there are 3 important things I miss (and if they're there, it's not for lack of searching)

1) saving expressions and cloth state per pose.
Cloth... could be handled with triggers as they don't typically change a lot in a scene... but expressions? It's quite odd bc BL pose me does store all the poses BUT facial expression. And this one need to change at every pose

2) sparse "playlist" control for going to one pose from another. One simple solution would be to have a "random to level" option for the pose navigation. In general the way timeline handles this looks powerful enough to me. But I don't want to use the two at the time - the whole point (well, one of them) of BL is that it's agile.

3) sync of forces. With the randomisation it makes it impossible to sync most forces between one another. This severely limits practical use case for them.
You *can* sync the fill me forces to the female thrust but nothing of the sort for the general movement offered in "pose me". What if one want to girate hips while there's a thrust?
Now I understand this last point is super tricky on how to tackle it. One could consider torque.. circular etc option has to be added in fill me for instance. But as I understand it now, I don't see how to make it work

Anyway, thanks again for the phenomenal work.

Hey!
1) Expressions: BL has it's own expressions, and they should change based on the action happening in the pose. They might be too subtile for your taste, but that's how it is right now. And saving external expressions on top of it might ruin the experience because of overlapping. Furthermore, saving expressions in a pose is not a good practice in my opinion. I can already see the results in dozens of scenes referencing the BL resources (where my morphs reside) but not the actual BL plugin. This is because they have BL active while creating, then storing their timeline poses with morphs being ticked on. So the BL expressions are stored in the pose and hence being referenced, regardless if BL is actually referenced in the scene. I don't want to contribute to this madness. My poses only store hand morphs. That's it. You can change expressions using the OnPoseEnter/Exit triggers if you really need to.
Clothing: What is a "cloth state"? Material settings? Undress state? The threshold too? You can see where this is going. I had to replicate all built-in clothing options for each and every piece of clothing currently active on the model to account for everyones needs. And even if I'd do that, people would complain not having the option to change any of the the males cloths, or other females in the scene... Simply load a clothing preset OnPoseEnter/Exit.
2) Not exactly sure what you mean. Have a look in the levels tab. This way you can have forward/backwards buttons to proceed in the scene. By default, all pose buttons of the current level are shown. But if you press "Toggle Pose Buttons" only the quick navigation is shown in the upper right corner (or on the world canvas, if you have set it up in the "Input" tab).

3) Exactly. VERY hard to accomplish. Enhanced syncing is on my (very long) todo list, but I'll probably never get to the state where one could sync an arbitrary movement with an arbitrary component of the thrusting in FMU. Besides the math being complicated (especially with the upcoming update featuring smooth pose transitions), the sheer selection process in the UI would be a nightmare.

EDIT: I don't actually have to replicate the clothing options, as I could fetch them from the current setup. But this would slow down pose selection tremendously, because I not only had to restore all the settings of each clothing active, I also had to iterate over all of the 4k items installed to remove them if not listed - each time you apply the pose. And I want the poses to be interchangable between scenes (Extract tab). What if the new scene has another outfit and you want to keep that? I had to set up a toggle in the Extract tab to decide if clothings should be loaded from the save file or not. Anyway, this has a VERY long tail...

 

[kirthgersen]

Thx for the quick reply

1) I suspected as much. Ideally indeed expression should be treated entirely in BL but as it is Read my Lips lacks option for control for someone like me and I'd wagger, your average Joe "content creator". This isn't a matter of being intense IMO, this is a matter of being able to say "no randomisation on this" and "please use this cool expression by Ashauryn" for that pose.
But FWIW this is a massive issue for me. I have an animation/art background and expressions are a huge part of what makes a scene. Having some randomisation between a few thing, not even being able to have archetype for shy, angry, indifferent etc. is... probably a deal breaker. At the very least if systems are conflicting it's quite important to be able to cut RML and have something like timeline to control it.

Clothing: just on and off really. QoL stuff as this is is quite frequent need. As we both pointed out this can be done with trigger and in a way this like what you did with timeline drop menu - making it more convenient to do from the UI. Obviously working with a 4K list is bad so maybe have them shortlisted from the first pose and only work with that list. In the rare case someone is dressing up his characters as the scene go having a first scene that's instant of maybe with maximally dressed hidden characters could be a workaround.

2) In timeline you can set for each anim/segment what to play next. Essentially play the next animation in their order, or a random one within the segment, or you can name animation 1/1,1/2,1/3 and the 2, 3 etc and tell it to pick a random next animation in 1/ between 1/1 -> 1/x and only those. Also you can assign weight to each animation so that they are more likely to be picked. So if you have the 1/3 animation having only 1% of chances to be played and it's the one exiting the loop, you can have 1 and 2 alternate for a random but significant time then have the anim jump to the next stage with a transition. As it is right now BL only offers "next one" and "randomize amongst ALL animations regardless of level". This is quite frustrating if you're trying to have a progression yet some variation. Having the ability to say random WITHIN CURRENT LEVEL would be great. I then would only use level to navigate from a UI stand point, with pose being a more granular part of one actual pose. (which begs the question of thumbnails for levels).

In general I don't like the current standard in VAM scenes to have the user being forced to click for things to progress. It breaks immersion while he's busy doing something else At least reducing the granularity of that seems like a good design angle

3) this could be an interesting discussion to have here. I've been designing enough app that I now know I don't like having to solve everything alone.
One can note VAM creators also struggled with similar concepts when designing VAM and came up with their force atoms on one hand and their position based animation on the other. It's a bit like ancestor to BL and Timeline respectively . Their approach to force was that you would attribute all of the component - angle, direction to one time control - at least all of those would be synched - but of course this isn't exactly intuitive nor a good UX.

Thinking out loud... For contextI come from audio app design where modulation is a massive topic. The way things work there is that you have LFO - modulation of several kind, sine, triangle, randomisation, sometimes custom - that you then apply to parameters - typically from -1 to +1. You would often have several different modulators and those would then drive one or (way) more parameters at a time. Sometimes you would even modulate one modulators parameter (say speed) with another.
This is one solve for the issue of synchronizing but of course this here isn't audio, so it probably doesn't translate 1:1 to somethingh of actual use. I think you're at the very least on a good start with your "sync to thrust" options. Just having pose me level animation also being able to sync to the fill me up master thrust would help. From there it's likely that having an ability to have not just the time, but the intensity of the animation affected by what's going on could help. Maybe some extra concept like delay of application could be useful too. Hard to conceptualize.

I suspect this is all pretty important because whatever VAM2 is it will have learned from its system, the history of various attempts at improving them, what worked and what didn't. How do you have your straightforward, reasonably intuitive yet controllable system for someone with an entry level understanding of animation to be able to reasonably translate what he's seen on pornhub in a 3D app, but with the benefit of having it random and alive?

 

[MSpeight69]

Hello. Just wanted to say how much I'm enjoying your plugin, certainly it makes my scenes much more realistic, I do have one thing I need help with as a newbie:

So during orgasm my models head shakes violently back and forth like she's having some kind of seizure lol. Pretty much breaks the realism with the head vibrating and jittering violently up and down. It only happens when "Ahegao" is activated in the head, at the same time that expressions are turned on. Both work fine with the other respective setting turned off. For some reason for me personally there always seems to be a conflict there between the two.

Has anyone else ever had this and fixed it? I know I'm probably missing something obvious but I'm fairly new to VAM so any help would be greatly appreciated. I'd love to have expressions and Ahegao working together.

 

[TheMontyBDSM]

Hi Cheesy, your tip about the forces it's useful but two quick questions;
1) In the scene when the man (or futa) penetrates the wearer of the FillMe plugin, he is already absolutely linked to the plugin and therefore to the force configuration no?
2) Correct me if I'm wrong;
Thrust = Speed
Cleavage = Depth.

 

[CheesyFX]

Hello. Just wanted to say how much I'm enjoying your plugin, certainly it makes my scenes much more realistic, I do have one thing I need help with as a newbie:

So during orgasm my models head shakes violently back and forth like she's having some kind of seizure lol. Pretty much breaks the realism with the head vibrating and jittering violently up and down. It only happens when "Ahegao" is activated in the head, at the same time that expressions are turned on. Both work fine with the other respective setting turned off. For some reason for me personally there always seems to be a conflict there between the two.

Has anyone else ever had this and fixed it? I know I'm probably missing something obvious but I'm fairly new to VAM so any help would be greatly appreciated. I'd love to have expressions and Ahegao working together.

Hi! I'm glad you like it
I know the issue. It has to do with forces overlapping in a bad way and is strongly tied to the pose you're in and how it is already modified by the Gaze. Try to have sensible poses, where the controllers are not that far away from the actual body part. Furthermore, try to stick to the default physics settings on the controllers, because that's what BL is designed to work on. For me, the issue occurs like every 200th orgasm, so nothing I'm worried about too much.
The expressions don't have anything to do with it.

 

[CheesyFX]

Hi Cheesy, your tip about the forces it's useful but two quick questions;
1) In the scene when the man (or futa) penetrates the wearer of the FillMe plugin, he is already absolutely linked to the plugin and therefore to the force configuration no?
2) Correct me if I'm wrong;
Thrust = Speed
Cleavage = Depth.

absolutely linked

What do you mean? Penetrating persons and dildos are driven by the plugin on the female, yes.

No.
Thrust = A pushing movement
Cleavage = The space between the breasts of a girl, typically used to perform a titjob.
Please use a dictionary if you don't understand the words.

 

[MSpeight69]

Hi! I'm glad you like it
I know the issue. It has to do with forces overlapping in a bad way and is strongly tied to the pose you're in and how it is already modified by the Gaze. Try to have sensible poses, where the controllers are not that far away from the actual body part. Furthermore, try to stick to the default physics settings on the controllers, because that's what BL is designed to work on. For me, the issue occurs like every 200th orgasm, so nothing I'm worried about too much.
The expressions don't have anything to do with it.

That's some good info right there, glad it's not the expressions. I imagine when I turn off expressions, and then don't have the issue, its because my forces are already contorted as it is and it just helps.

Yes, it doesn't happen all the time but probably 1/5 times. I'm using custom poses, nothing too exotic but that's certainly something I can troubleshoot, along with the default physics.

In terms of the gaze if I'm really struggling to get it smoother, can it be turned off/down to reduce this jitteryness. Will that help?

Feel free to explain it to me like I'm a simpleton, my computer skills are rusty to say the least

Appreciate your reply.

 

[SlimerJSpud]

The head shake can be disabled in the Ahegao tab of ReadMyLips. You can also disable the emotes, and other individual features of Ahegao. I prefer to have the eyes crossed, the tongue out, and the legs shake, but not the rest of it.

 

[MSpeight69]

The head shake can be disabled in the Ahegao tab of ReadMyLips. You can also disable the emotes, and other individual features of Ahegao. I prefer to have the eyes crossed, the tongue out, and the legs shake, but not the rest of it.

Yeah I've done that and tbf it's still a really good simulation without the head, but a part of me feels like I'm missing out on all the aspects of this fantastic plug in if I can't get a chick to throw her head back in extacy

 

[SlimerJSpud]

Yeah I've done that and tbf it's still a really good simulation without the head, but a part of me feels like I'm missing out on all the aspects of this fantastic plug in if I can't get a chick to throw her head back in extacy

That can be done with the dub.force plugin. You can set a trigger on orgasm start that puts a rotation on the head with a long cycle time. When the orgasm stops, the force stops. That's 2 triggers.

 

[MSpeight69]

That can be done with the dub.force plugin. You can set a trigger on orgasm start that puts a rotation on the head with a long cycle time. When the orgasm stops, the force stops. That's 2 triggers.

Ooof. Might be a bit above my technical knowhow currently, but I'm learning a lot. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll deffo check that out.

 

[CheesyFX]

That can be done with the dub.force plugin. You can set a trigger on orgasm start that puts a rotation on the head with a long cycle time. When the orgasm stops, the force stops. That's 2 triggers.

That's actually the same as the ahegao head is doing, except your trigger isn't aware of secondary things that have to be dialed down, like the gaze force. So this is not a good "workaround". The shaking will be even more likely to occur, or it won't be noticeable at all because the gaze is working against it. On top of that, the head will snap back abruptly if you just disable the dubforce on orgasm finish.
Almost all of the features in Bl have to be aware of each other and it's never a good idea to disable the native one, trying to replicate it through other means.

 

[kirthgersen]

You can change expressions using the OnPoseEnter/Exit triggers if you really need to.

So I've tried this and... I can't?
Trigger let me reach the loadPreset call except I can't have any parameter specified to tell it what to load. I see you've made your own ExpressionIO plugins in 2022 (although I am unclear what it does the Morph Preset tab doesn't). Can't have it load what I want either.
AFAICT the only way to have actual expression control associated to pose switch is through Timeline - saving them in the pose itself. Did I miss something? I'd like to avoid having to use Timeline while using BL. Any idea?

Edit: in fact even using Timeline won't work as it's limited to one timeline and for expression that would be a huge PITA to have to store animation just for combination of expression for the two characters. The loading itself work albeit brutally.

Edit 2: it works with Extralodeus Expression Randomizer.

 

[CheesyFX]

So I've tried this and... I can't?
Trigger let me reach the loadPreset call except I can't have any parameter specified to tell it what to load. I see you've made your own ExpressionIO plugins in 2022 (although I am unclear what it does the Morph Preset tab doesn't). Can't have it load what I want either.
AFAICT the only way to have actual expression control associated to pose switch is through Timeline - saving them in the pose itself. Did I miss something? I'd like to avoid having to use Timeline while using BL. Any idea?

Edit: in fact even using Timeline won't work as it's limited to one timeline and for expression that would be a huge PITA to have to store animation just for combination of expression for the two characters. The loading itself work albeit brutally.

Edit 2: it works with Extralodeus Expression Randomizer.

I don't follow. The PoseEnter/Exit triggers are vanilla VAM triggers. They can do everything a "normal" trigger can do. Either adjust the morphs directly using Person>Geometrie>morphUid or load a preset from a path.

ExpressionIO only (re)stores expression morphs, while morph presets or timeline store every pose morph including my bulge, gape, breathing, all of ShakeIt, TittyMagic and so on.

 

[kirthgersen]

Choose file doesn't appear here. In fairness, it didn't either in Timeline or in VAM proper's trigger tabs.

 

[CheesyFX]

Choose file doesn't appear here. In fairness, it didn't either in Timeline or in VAM proper's trigger tabs.

Then something is wrong with your vam install. What version are you running?

 

[kirthgersen]

1.22.03

EDIT - I got it. There is a "Load preset" and a "Load Preset With Path" that I had missed.
It's for the better though bc Extralodeus does a better work of switching smoothly.

As for Expression IO it doesn't have the "load" accessible in the trigger menu. But again, not sure I need it.

What I'd really need is expression in Pose Me ngl
But hey. This is workable.

 

[SlimerJSpud]

@kirthgersen the Vam triggers will only show you a morph that is in your favorites. You select "geometry" instead of something on the atom like clothes or a specific body part. When you have geometry selected, then you have to filter for the morph you want, because the list is too long. If you need multiple morphs, then the preset approach is the way to go.

 

[kirthgersen]

I was specifically speaking about loading morph preset... Anyway, I am sorted.