Demo + Lite Naturalis (free)

[everlaster]

This is clearly a better implementation of DiviningCleavageAndNipples- though has to be applied per person of course.

One suggestion, maybe a button to parse every item of clothing and create a default profile if breast adjust is enabled. To save every user having to create a profile by hand for themselves for every item of clothing that has breasts adjust to get that cleavage look?

Thanks redeyes.

First off, the idea is that for custom items, clothing creators should include a default profile in the var package. This gets auto-loaded from the var when users enable the clothing item. It's obviously entirely up to the clothing creator to do that, and a lot of people won't even be aware of this but I hope it becomes common enough eventually. More info:

Naturalis v1.1: Info for Creators

everlastervr.github.io

Naturalis v1.1: Clothing Adjustment Profiles

everlastervr.github.io

Regarding creating a default profile programmatically, there's a bunch of issues there.

Firstly, it's difficult to estimate what the default profile should be, essentially it's just guessing. Not nearly all clothing should produce cleavage or pushup, and also I'm not sure if the breast adjustment being enabled is even a reliable indicator that it the item should produce cleavage or pushup. That adjustment just controls spring and damper, and I would say those settings have to do clothing material's rigidity more than the shape of the item. E.g. you can have a jacket or tight shirt that just presses down on the breasts, not producing any cleavage, but simply holding things in place. And conversely, loose fabrics will allow breasts to move a lot (so spring and dampening should be low) but they can still produce lift or push breasts together.

It really varies item by item how much force should be applied, whether the morphs should be offset independently of forces, how much hold and dampening should be applied, and of course how the item should affect soft physics. I didn't want to just apply the same profile for every item because a lot of the time it wouldn't look right on the item anyway, better to get people used to creating profiles that work for them. It's super quick to do anyway once you've done it a couple times, and the default profile only needs to be created once per item. Finally I didn't want to automatically override the way the someone's custom made clothing item looks when Naturalis is enabled, it really should be up to the creator to handle that just like with the rest of the clothing item's settings.

I hope that clears things up more than it confuses, haha

 

[redeyes]

Thanks redeyes.

First off, the idea is that for custom items, clothing creators should include a default profile in the var package. This gets auto-loaded from the var when users enable the clothing item. It's obviously entirely up to the clothing creator to do that, and a lot of people won't even be aware of this but I hope it becomes common enough eventually. More info:

Naturalis v1.1: Info for Creators

everlastervr.github.io

Naturalis v1.1: Clothing Adjustment Profiles

everlastervr.github.io

Regarding creating a default profile programmatically, there's a bunch of issues there.

Firstly, it's difficult to estimate what the default profile should be, essentially it's just guessing. Not nearly all clothing should produce cleavage or pushup, and also I'm not sure if the breast adjustment being enabled is even a reliable indicator that it the item should produce cleavage or pushup. That adjustment just controls spring and damper, and I would say those settings have to do clothing material's rigidity more than the shape of the item. E.g. you can have a jacket or tight shirt that just presses down on the breasts, not producing any cleavage, but simply holding things in place. And conversely, loose fabrics will allow breasts to move a lot (so spring and dampening should be low) but they can still produce lift or push breasts together.

It really varies item by item how much force should be applied, whether the morphs should be offset independently of forces, how much hold and dampening should be applied, and of course how the item should affect soft physics. I didn't want to just apply the same profile for every item because a lot of the time it wouldn't look right on the item anyway, better to get people used to creating profiles that work for them. It's super quick to do anyway once you've done it a couple times, and the default profile only needs to be created once per item. Finally I didn't want to automatically override the way the someone's custom made clothing item looks when Naturalis is enabled, it really should be up to the creator to handle that just like with the rest of the clothing item's settings.

I hope that clears things up more than it confuses, haha

Thanks for the reply

The following wall of text is because I really want your plugin to take over from DiviningCleavage it's clearly the better solution.

I think breast adjustment is a reliable indicator as it's per item of clothing setting and there are many items that people have that set and many not. So creators are already using that tick box for the purpose of "adjusting breasts". It's why I used it for DiviningCleavage.

This is something that Naturalis/TittyMagic currently breaks as it overrides the phyics setting that "adjust breast" plays with - which was something that was noticed by people using DiviningCleavageAndNipples - link to post made by "tracer"

Plugins - DiviningCleavageAndNipples

redeyes submitted a new resource: DiviningCleavageAndNipples - This session plugin will morph a cleavage and reduce nipple size for clothing that adjust breasts This session plugin will morph a cleavage and reduce nipple size when an item of clothing with "Adjust Breasts" is added to a girl...

hub.virtamate.com

Now I totally agree you don't want to overwrite a creators default setting they may ship with their cloth item, if they've done that then best used the creators settings. What I was thinking of is a button to create a default profile for every item only if the file doesn't exist and "adjust breasts" is ticked for that item. So for the vast majority it wouldn't create any default. But for those items that have that option ticket it would.

I was thinking this is basically a 1 time button that the user has to do themselves to further make sure errors don't get made.

Then you can apply a default setting for "breasts up" to replicate what VAM already ships + have the options to change all the settings as users wants, maybe even do a default cleavage button - but I'm getting ahead of myself there. Basically a default is what VAM ships already so this is really asking for that default to added back in + extras controls.

If that was done then there really isn't a need for DiviningCleavage - I'm totally fine with killing of defunct plugins, even my own, for the better solution. I just think at the moment, my plugin does have that little advantage of reacting to "breasts adjust" which this plugin current disables.

 

[everlaster]

I think breast adjustment is a reliable indicator as it's per item of clothing setting and there are many items that people have that set and many not. So creators are already using that tick box for the purpose of "adjusting breasts". It's why I used it for DiviningCleavage.

But a reliable indicator of what exactly? My point was that the vanilla spring and damper adjustment doesn't necessarily mean there should be cleavage. It might mean something else, like just hold the breasts in place but don't dramatically change their shape, since that's what spring does. Or it might mean cleavage, but without actually changing the physics (spring, damper). It's only a reliable indicator that some kind of clothing profile is needed in Naturalis, but what kind, it really depends on the item.

Now I totally agree you don't want to overwrite a creators default setting they may ship with their cloth item, if they've done that then best used the creators settings. What I was thinking of is a button to create a default profile for every item only if the file doesn't exist and "adjust breasts" is ticked for that item. So for the vast majority it wouldn't create any default. But for those items that have that option ticket it would.

I was thinking this is basically a 1 time button that the user has to do themselves to further make sure errors don't get made.

By "overriding", I didn't mean overriding the profile that the author has supplied. I meant that when the author has not supplied a profile, i.e. when there's just the breast adjustment enabled on the item itself, it would be presumptuous to assume what the author meant by that. As explained above. That's why I didn't want to supply a global default profile that gets enabled automatically, potentially turning an item that shouldn't have cleavage into an item that does have cleavage, for example.

I'm not sure if the idea that users of Naturalis should be able to create a global default profile is any better. I mean, it might be. It certainly moves the "blame" for interfering with the clothing creator's intent from myself to the user . But it also adds a different problem which is that different people using Naturalis will get a different default look with the same clothing items when those users have created different global default profiles. E.g. a clothing creator releases a new bra, two Naturalis users download it and enable it, and for one user the bra will have pushup while for the other the bra will have cleavage, and neither of these is necessarily what the creator even meant when they enabled breast adjustment in the item's settings.

Then you can apply a default setting for "breasts up" to replicate what VAM already ships + have the options to change all the settings as users wants, maybe even do a default cleavage button - but I'm getting ahead of myself there. Basically a default is what VAM ships already so this is really asking for that default to added back in + extras controls.

I understand what you mean, the problem is just that what the breast adjustment in VAM means doesn't translate clearly to Naturalis. They are such different systems, VAM's is very simplistic while Naturalis offers a lot of customization specific to each clothing item. That's why the philosophy is also different, with Naturalis you're supposed to have a specific profile for each item (preferably supplied by the author).

I think the best I could probably do is apply an appropriate amount of Hold and Dampening automatically for clothing items that have breast adjustment enabled (and don't yet have a default profile), since together those sliders in Naturalis correspond 1:1 to the breast adjustment slider in VAM. That way, Naturalis wouldn't undo/break the default behavior that was set by the clothing author, and wouldn't try to guess whether the item should have cleavage, pushup, etc.

 

[redeyes]

But a reliable indicator of what exactly? My point was that the vanilla spring and damper adjustment doesn't necessarily mean there should be cleavage. It might mean something else, like just hold the breasts in place but don't dramatically change their shape, since that's what spring does. Or it might mean cleavage, but without actually changing the physics (spring, damper). It's only a reliable indicator that some kind of clothing profile is needed in Naturalis, but what kind, it really depends on the item.



By "overriding", I didn't mean overriding the profile that the author has supplied. I meant that when the author has not supplied a profile, i.e. when there's just the breast adjustment enabled on the item itself, it would be presumptuous to assume what the author meant by that. As explained above. That's why I didn't want to supply a global default profile that gets enabled automatically, potentially turning an item that shouldn't have cleavage into an item that does have cleavage, for example.

I'm not sure if the idea that users of Naturalis should be able to create a global default profile is any better. I mean, it might be. It certainly moves the "blame" for interfering with the clothing creator's intent from myself to the user . But it also adds a different problem which is that different people using Naturalis will get a different default look with the same clothing items when those users have created different global default profiles. E.g. a clothing creator releases a new bra, two Naturalis users download it and enable it, and for one user the bra will have pushup while for the other the bra will have cleavage, and neither of these is necessarily what the creator even meant when they enabled breast adjustment in the item's settings.



I understand what you mean, the problem is just that what the breast adjustment in VAM means doesn't translate clearly to Naturalis. They are such different systems, VAM's is very simplistic while Naturalis offers a lot of customization specific to each clothing item. That's why the philosophy is also different, with Naturalis you're supposed to have a specific profile for each item (preferably supplied by the author).

I think the best I could probably do is apply an appropriate amount of Hold and Dampening automatically for clothing items that have breast adjustment enabled (and don't yet have a default profile), since together those sliders in Naturalis correspond 1:1 to the breast adjustment slider in VAM. That way, Naturalis wouldn't undo/break the default behavior that was set by the clothing author, and wouldn't try to guess whether the item should have cleavage, pushup, etc.

Yes, the last part is probably best option, it would at least give back what VAM ships with. So a global option to repliacate what was there - which is overridden by a profile that creator ships with or user creates. If you also added the Forces then people like me can set to taste any amount of cleavage - as much as creator has a vision, this is a program that provides huge user/creator control over the experience, if 1 user wants stupid amounts of cleavage, then why not? Another doesn't, let them choose, let them have the choice.

Also thinking from a new user pespective - where you just want to add the plugin and it automatically does 90% of what you want. Chasing the last 10% can be maddening. But for long time users with 1000's of clothing item, most of which the creator won't upload a Naturalis profile, those users that like control everything about the scene (me and I don't think I'm alone ) would have to go through every item of clothing and adjust and save the profile. That's a big pain - I know, I've been trying to do it.

That was my last thought, could I go throught the pain of creating 1000's of profiles for free to download clothe items and then upload a 1000's of profiles as a var? Could be done? painful though.

 

[everlaster]

Yes, the last part is probably best option, it would at least give back what VAM ships with. So a global option to repliacate what was there - which is overridden by a profile that creator ships with or user creates. If you also added the Forces then people like me can set to taste any amount of cleavage - as much as creator has a vision, this is a program that provides huge user/creator control over the experience, if 1 user wants stupid amounts of cleavage, then why not? Another doesn't, let them choose, let them have the choice.

Fair enough. Personally I don't really like the idea of having a default profile that doesn't necessarily work for every item and is different user to user, but it might be an acceptable compromise.

Also thinking from a new user pespective - where you just want to add the plugin and it automatically does 90% of what you want. Chasing the last 10% can be maddening. But for long time users with 1000's of clothing item, most of which the creator won't upload a Naturalis profile, those users that like control everything about the scene (me and I don't think I'm alone ) would have to go through every item of clothing and adjust and save the profile. That's a big pain - I know, I've been trying to do it.

Why not create the profile as needed? Creating a profile for every item just in case you enable it at some point in the future seems like a lot of time potentially wasted.

That was my last thought, could I go throught the pain of creating 1000's of profiles for free to download clothe items and then upload a 1000's of profiles as a var? Could be done? painful though.

It is possible to create a library of presets, yes. If installed as a var package, the plugin won't use them by default, they'll just be available via the load file browser. However the var could be unpacked to the user's installation (potentially overwriting any existing default profiles).

UPDATE:

As you know each item has its profiles under Author/ItemName in the VaM/Saves/PluginData/Naturalis/ChestClothingProfiles folder. The Author/ItemName folder gets created when you use any of these buttons:

One way to slightly speed up the process of creating a library would be to enable each of the 1000 clothing items and click on one of the buttons. Set As Item Default would be the quickest since it doesn't open up the file browser (which you'd have to immedately close if you just wanted to create the folder). Once you have the folder set up, you could copy some Default.json into every folder to give every item the same default cleavage, for example. This would be quickest to do with a simple command line script or a WSL bash script. The profile files themselves contain no information about the item, they just define the values for the sliders as well as the soft joint coverage data. If you do this, don't do the covered soft joints mapping for the default profile that you intend to reuse for other items, since the coverage data will be incorrect for any other item.

 

[redeyes]

Fair enough. Personally I don't really like the idea of having a default profile that doesn't necessarily work for every item and is different user to user, but it might be an acceptable compromise.

Why not create the profile as needed? Creating a profile for every item just in case you enable it at some point in the future seems like a lot of time potentially wasted.

It is possible to create a library of presets, yes. If installed as a var package, the plugin won't use them by default, they'll just be available via the load file browser. However the var could be unpacked to the user's installation (potentially overwriting any existing default profiles).

UPDATE:

As you know each item has its profiles under Author/ItemName in the VaM/Saves/PluginData/Naturalis/ChestClothingProfiles folder. The Author/ItemName folder gets created when you use any of these buttons:
View attachment 293194

One way to slightly speed up the process of creating a library would be to enable each of the 1000 clothing items and click on one of the buttons. Set As Item Default would be the quickest since it doesn't open up the file browser (which you'd have to immedately close if you just wanted to create the folder). Once you have the folder set up, you could copy some Default.json into every folder to give every item the same default cleavage, for example. This would be quickest to do with a simple command line script or a WSL bash script. The profile files themselves contain no information about the item, they just define the values for the sliders as well as the soft joint coverage data. If you do this, don't do the covered soft joints mapping for the default profile that you intend to reuse for other items, since the coverage data will be incorrect for any other item.

Well I could script this as a plugin, with a "create default for all items with breast adjust" button that users can either accept VAM like settings or override some of the settings for more cleavage. But then it would better integrated

The really issue is if this creates a default only if a default is missing, then it becomes a 1 shot button - unless you provide an override option to write over the top of the default file for each item.

This is hard nut to crack - but I think some sort of automation of this would be prefer by most users for a quick and good experience.

 

[Rokensu]

Anyone got a preset or made a preset for naturalis designed for big booties? Trying to do it, myself, but it ain't easy to figure out.

 

[everlaster]

everlaster updated Naturalis (free) with a new update entry:

v1.1.11

Clothing's Adjust Breasts and Adjust Glutes settings are taken into account

VAM's Breast Spring/Damper Multiplier and Glute Spring/Damper Multiplier sliders are now translated to Hold and Dampening slider values in the plugin when the item doesn't have a default profile. The increases to spring and damper are a bit reduced compared to what the multipliers would set without the plugin.

The point here is just to respect the clothing item specific spring and damper set by the creator...

Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[everlaster]

everlaster updated Naturalis (free) with a new update entry:

v1.1.12

If High Quality Physics is enabled in VAM user preferences, the plugin now notifies about that and suggests to use low breast hard collider mass. I noticed that with high quality physics, hard colliders cause breasts to move much more sensitively. Base mass multiplier at around 0.20-0.30 with high quality physics enabled looks similar to 1.00 when disabled. However, generally high quality physics is not worth it because of the performance cost and negligible visual difference.

This of...

Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[VRAdultFun]

Well that explains a few oddities Ive experienced in the past. Sometimes I put High Quality physics on just because I have the FPS headroom to do so. It never correlated but I noticed several times the breasts colliders were far too sensitive compared to normal. This explains it!

 

[MGyuri]

hey everlaster?!I wanna ask that is there a way to make every calculation without posing as a doll?
I'd more like that tittymagic way,as it is,but freeze motion.this have bootymagic so I try it.

 

[everlaster]

hey everlaster?!I wanna ask that is there a way to make every calculation without posing as a doll?
I'd more like that tittymagic way,as it is,but freeze motion.this have bootymagic so I try it.

Hi, this is planned for v1.2 (currently in development)

 

[everlaster]

everlaster updated Naturalis (free) with a new update entry:

v1.1.13

Some relatively impactful bugs fixed:

• Fixed bug in glute depth morphing calculation when soft physics is enabled - decreasing soft physics mesh depth was interpreted as the overall glute depth increasing rather than decreasing, causing morphing in the opposite direction
• Futa depth morphing calculation now uses soft body joints when soft physics is enabled, just like on a female character (it's more accurate as it allows the soft physics based changes to the mesh to affect morph...

Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[atani]

everlaster updated Naturalis (free) with a new update entry:

v1.1.13



Read the rest of this update entry...

The difference between using VaM's breast/glute soft-body physics and using the ones coming from the use of your plugin is so great that I can't even tell when your plugin shows a bug unless it's a dramatic one. All these bug corrections are welcomed but didn't even noticed them.

 

[Zeeko]

Hey I added your Naturalis plugin and in timeline face expressions did not worked anymore;( they simple disappear even they are was my favorite but cant add them anymore. It just happen after I added your plugin I lost expressions from all animations. Just letting you know! Other vise nice plugin.

 

[everlaster]

Hey I added your Naturalis plugin and in timeline face expressions did not worked anymore;( they simple disappear even they are was my favorite but cant add them anymore. It just happen after I added your plugin I lost expressions from all animations. Just letting you know! Other vise nice plugin.

Hi, I did a quick test and was not able to reproduce that issue. Here's what I tried

1. favourited the built in Mouth Smile morph
2. added Timeline to the person atom, added the morph float param (under Geometry) and animated it
3. added Naturalis -> the animation was still working
4. removed timeline and added timeline again -> the morph was still selectable under geometry

Please DM me (click on my username and click Start conversation) if you can figure out a step by step guide to reproduce the issue from the default scene or using some freely available scene, thanks.

 

[SinFear]

How can I make sure that the plugin does not affect the shape of the buttocks in a free state?

Without plugin

With plugin

 

[everlaster]

How can I make sure that the plugin does not affect the shape of the buttocks in a free state?

Adjust the angle offset and depth offset sliders until it looks right: https://everlastervr.github.io/docs/naturalis/v1_1/directional_force_morphing/#angle-offsets

 

[SinFear]

Adjust the angle offset and depth offset sliders until it looks right: https://everlastervr.github.io/docs/naturalis/v1_1/directional_force_morphing/#angle-offsets

This slider does not lower the buttocks. It just lifts them up.

 

[everlaster]

View attachment 301785
This slider does not lower the buttocks. It just lifts them up.

At the minimum value of -15 degrees, the angle of the glute joint around which morph values are calculated is 15 degrees below the angle that the plugin arrived at during calibration. That should be enough to remove all of the upward morphing and apply some of the downward morphing.

The downward morphing doesn't really push the glutes down much, it just adjusts the shape. Still, whatever up/down morph adjustments the plugin does in a specific pose can be cancelled out by setting the up/down offset to a value where neither of the Up or Down multiplier sliders have any visible effect. By trial and error you can arrive at an offset that makes the glutes look the same as before adding the plugin in a specific pose. If you don't want the morphs to be adjusted, you can always put the multipliers at zero - that might work best for some looks... BootyMagic's morphing is still pretty rudimentary.

 

[rvl1923]

Хуже чем 42, не естественное поведение груди и ягодиц, через чур обвисает

 

[everlaster]

Хуже чем 42, не естественное поведение груди и ягодиц, через чур обвисает

What is worse than 42? 43?

The next v1.2 beta on Patreon will have a proper a way of countering sag, and revised physics default settings. However if you don't like the defaults you can adjust everything to your liking and create your own preset

 

[madparrto]

When animating some morphs that have the red gear indicating bone morphs - I know I know, "animation not recommended" - body parts that are under the control of Naturalis jerk around violently. Is there any way around this, or will I just need to choose a different morph?

 

[everlaster]

When animating some morphs that have the red gear indicating bone morphs - I know I know, "animation not recommended" - body parts that are under the control of Naturalis jerk around violently. Is there any way around this, or will I just need to choose a different morph?

Either choose a different morph, or convert the morph to one that has no bone morphs. You can create a copy using MorphMerger and remove the bone formulas from the .vmi file.

 

[madparrto]

Found the culprit - I deleted the Neck bone formulas from the vmi and now the morph works great even with all the other bones in place. Thanks!