VaM2 better hurry up. Others are chasing your tail

[epi.noah]

This is the closest I can get to photorealism with free and hub-hosted assets:

The room asset ( RealityCapture_Room ) is self-lit. The scene creator only needs to light the character. The 4spots rig (in epiLight) does that well if you attach its position to her chest ( I used Epi4SpotsChest1400, and I would manually rotate it to better match the room if needed). Normally, I prefer to use rooms that respond to lights the same way the character does, which I find is ideal for VR. But this alternative approach can work for scenes where the creator controls the camera and the action, like music videos.

• It can look great if the skin textures also have a lot of detail.
• It runs crazy fast too.

But for that crazy level of performance, you may have to disable advanced colliders and soft physics. A physics engine update is desperately needed.

For VR, I prefer rooms that respond to lights, like [Environment] The Dining Room with the settings in epiRoom. I use 4spotsWide or 4Points depending on the needs of the scene.

There was a time when I would say "4 lights, 8K normal maps, are you insane?!". But we have crazy fast GPUs and the bottleneck is the physics engine & CPU single thread performance. I see no reason to avoid chasing better visuals.

If VaM2.0 can't get here in a few months (which I would not expect), I wish we had a performance focused physics engine update to VaM before the move to VaM 2.0.

 

[Kosmosx]

you can still adapt that overhead but that needs a lot of manual work and optimization completely scene and context dependent
you also can adapt this dynamically if you really smart though dynamically adaption for interactive scenes that are rather unpredictable that's of course even more limited headroom.

Not always Physics are the biggest balance problem and take the most resources depending on the overall scene complexity

though you shouldn't measure in FPS sometimes it's even more efficient to measure in your own response feeling from input to output and not even believing any internal counters at all

of course it is different if you can measure fully system external and low OS/API overhead

Sometimes it's even a viable option to measure in Energy Efficiency and how for example your power management reacts

 

[Kosmosx]

2 years is a crazy assumption i guess he rather hoped as long as possible to run his VAMX, it's not that you have to rewrite it entirely and can't leverage from nothing.

 

[epi.noah]

where did you hear that?! vamx was saying it's likely not gonna be out for like 2 years, and even then not at full functionality

Agreed. That's why we need a physics engine update.

If VaM2.0 can't get here in a few months (which I would not expect), I wish we had a performance focused physics engine update to VaM before the move to VaM 2.0.

I'm saying: If VaM 2.0 is indeed going to take some time, the original poster of the topic might be right unless the current VaM gets a physics engine update.

The choice are:
1. The physics engine in VaM 1.x gets improved.
2. VaM 2.0 gets here in less than a year (not likely).
3. We have a year where the core tech is way behind the times and alternatives can gain traction.

If we had a faster, better optimized physics engine, even just remixing and putting together content that is readily available for free would lead to the best adult VR content out there.

 

[epi.noah]

Agreed if they need to update the whole engine. I thought they had a custom implementation for the physics engine, which made me assume that it can be updated without having to touch the rest. But maybe not.

 

[taricol45]

interesting information

 

[epi.noah]

Ok, it is custom, but not customized by the team. Customized by Unity.

Unity's Physx is their own custom implementation that does not support GPU acceleration, so that is not an option. Unity also doesn't really support a 2nd GPU in any way with compute shaders, which is a bummer because a 2nd GPU could be used for clothing/hair physics with results transferred to 1st GPU for rendering. That would be a big win.

So yeah, it might be too much work unless there is a Physx version out there compatible with this version of Unity and everything else VaM uses.

I wasn't expecting them to write a physics engine from scratch. Just hoping that they might implement an updated version of what's there if it's compatible with everything else. But they probably would have done that already if it was possible.

I just need to take a break for a while and come back to where I left off after a beefy upgrade.

 

[epi.noah]

I have a plugin idea here. I don't know if it's been done before, or if it can be done, but if possible, it can help with the physics engine bottleneck.

The scene comes with a tablet that lets you control the action AND set the quality/performance levels.

• Quality: High-quality lights, high physics rate, soft physics on, advanced colliders on, cloth sim on.
• 4: High-quality lights, 45fps physics rate, soft physics on, advanced colliders on, cloth sim off.
• 3: High-quality lights, 45fps physics rate, soft physics on for the breast (off for glutes), advanced colliders on, cloth sim off.
• 2: High-quality lights, 30fps physics rate, soft physics off, advanced colliders off, cloth sim off.
• Fast: Low-quality lights, 30fps physics rate, soft physics off, advanced colliders off, cloth sim off.

In VR, you can call the tablet to your hand with a button on your smartwatch. Send it back to its station by using the same button.

Click:
Fast if your PC is a potato. Also click "L", which will switch to lights that follow her and turn off the room.
2 to walk around her and enjoy the view. This is the scene default. Looks great.
3 to also interact with the breasts.
4 to also interact with the glutes.
Quality if your PC is a beast.

As scene creators, we can
• Use Timeline . By default, it won't slow down or speed up the animation depending on your FPS. It will keep it steady.
• Use SPQR Performance. It lets you set the physics rate per scene, bypassing the game settings (without messing with user settings).

With this combination, we can
1. Set the game to run as fast as it can be by limiting the physics rate, and still have an animation that doesn't run too fast.
2. Set the game to run with the smoothest (high) physics rate that your CPU can push, and still have an animation that doesn't run too slow when you drop frames.

The user's physics cap and High-Quality Physics toggle will still affect the results (quality and performance). But we should be able to fine-tune each scene.


The Plugin Idea
A good coder should be able to design a plugin that automatically switches between the quality levels set in this scene depending on the needs of the moment. Like disabling soft physics automatically to give the user the highest performance if she's just dancing away from the user, and not touching herself. Maybe something like bounding boxes around the breasts and glutes to trigger "soft physics on" if they are breached.

You may think: "Hey, if I wanna undress her, I'll have to turn on advanced colliders, soft physics, cloth physics and it will slow down".
I'm thinking: "She's just dancing there and it's as slow as it would be if I was undressing her. What a waste".

Ideally, the plugin would also have an option to set the physics rate dynamically so that when she is dancing (and we have high performance because soft physics, advanced colliders, cloth sim are off) you get a higher rate to match and get the best motion quality. She comes closer and her dance slows down, to the point where collision will start (you breach the bounding box around her) and physics rate comes down but advanced colliders turn on. She gets even closer and you also breach boxes around the breast/glutes, soft physics and cloth sim turn on with a lower (but still good enough) rate to match. So it would aim for the best quality for what's going on in the scene with a fairly consistent performance.

The physics engine is the bottleneck for VaM 1.x. It can still offer great performance with much better graphics than before. If a good plugin like this came along, that would extend the life of VaM 1.x and make it possible for people to remix their scenes or create new ones with better quality assets and resources that are available for free to everyone. That would keep everyone (users and creators) busy until VaM 2.0 hits.

Cheers!

 

[Hexenv88]

Just want too share my two cents worth.

VAM stands alone so far in what it provides to the user. I have tried may of the adult games on steam and played around with some of the various patreon offerings as well. For people that just want to load scenes and enjoy a fantasy or two Vams content choices are endless compared to packaged games, sure you can interact with models change a few props and maybe some scene adjustments like lighting or what ever in other similar games, BUT Vams creation tools is what makes it shine brighter than any other adult title. its ability to import basically anything you want as an assetbundle its hair and clothing maker are second to none. being able to import custom characters and morphs from daz into fully animatable charters allows for endless character options both male and female and plugins like timeline give you the ability to animate your characters and trigger effects, music, sound, lights even other plugins or animations, pretty much anything you want.

Yes I agree VAM 1.x has it limitations, Flaws and bugs BUT. it also provides the freedom to literally do what ever you want in VR, I mean the adult side of it is one thing. I have even just made environments just to chill in and watch a movie with my favorite character, that I was also able to make the way I want in VAM thanks to the endless morning and shaping abilities. VAM is not a game in the traditional sense. It is an adult sandbox where your wildest dreams and fantasies can be recreated in VR. No other adult title has even come close to Vams creative niche. (In my opinion)

But all that said I also agree the 2.x should be released as soon as possible, As VAM rises in popularity and more people start using it, you will have other developer's that are interested in this type of thing look to it as a reference or template to begin working on competing products. I understand that meshed wants to have all their i's dotted and t's crossed before releasing a product, especially considering some of the bugs the were and still are in Vam 1.x. But no matter how much one go's though everything bugs will still surface, and an in-house development team will never find the issues that a userbase of thousands will, users have a knack of pushing software to its limits and doing stuff even the developer's would never have though of, therefore updates and patches will be inevitable. add to the fact that meshed has openly stated that it will not focus on Van.1x anymore from a development perspective makes it crucial that they get 2.x out asap. especially before someone does come out with a competing product that does contain like features.

 

[HolySchmidt]

I dont know accurate this is, but interesting nevertheless:

Meshed VR: Patreon Earnings + Statistics + Graphs + Rank

meshedvr Patreon earnings, statistics, graphs, and popularity rank updated daily

graphtreon.com

 

[HolySchmidt]

I mean subscribers are constantly rising and this wouldnt have happened without VaM 2 in my opinion. Cause you said milking VaM 1, I dont think this is possible anymore cause once downloaded, you own it.

 

[Hexenv88]

but that's kind of the point of patreon, if you like what somebody is doing you can help by supporting. people want vam2 to be made and they support it

what i meant by milking is what other devs are doing with their games. it's easier to push the can down the road and throw a parade about small updates, make it seem like you've done a lot and go all-in marketing mode about it. For example you could get regular vam updates with more ui, voice packs, 5 more poses, one more room etc. and vam would get more money with a lot less work and people would complain less. It takes a lot of work & determination to try to go next level, especially when everything is comfy and you could just chill.

that argument i've seen around like "he gets support therefore has no reason to update it anymore" imho comes from noobs that didn't witness/process what it took for vam1 to be made in the first place. what were people even playing before it? klub17? illusion's recycled games? people should be excited that the drive is still there to push things forward because that's what got vam1 made. many are and that's why the support

i still think though that some other game will kick vam2's ass. this "gamedev simulator" approach is cool but most people don't want to do triggers and drag poses and all that. vamx's success is a testament to that. imo vam tries to sit somewhere between a game engine and a game and ends being neither really, imho at least

I agree. The beauty of VAM for me is you can simply be a user/consumer of pre made content. Or you can become a maker of content for others to enjoy all within the same setup. Plus I feel it would be a while before VAM has any serious issues with competition. I mean the content already made for use spans hundreds of GB,s. One would have exhausted the replayability of most adult titles long before they run out of content for VAM. And that's just the free stuff. But yes I agree most don't want or need the vast features of VAM. But having it available sets it apart from everything else.

 

[epi.noah]

In the early Rift Dev Kit days I was excited to download free demos of people's vision for VR .
VaM is the only thing out there that still gives me that thrill, with an adult twist.
And unlike the early Rift Dev Kit days, we have the tools we need to create our own demos even if we're not a programmer.

__________________

I share what I can, to make it even easier for other creators to build VR friendly, immersive scenes, like this: Gloria Home epiTemplate.
I don't have a Patreon, don't make any money, have nothing to gain from this but more content that may come my way.
People with better programming skills have done the same (and more), which makes VaM better than any alternative in the short term.

In the long term, it needs better physics performance etc. But I do have some shortcuts in that template scene to get great performance and great quality in VR.
__________________

The obvious competition is UE5 because it is more user friendly for people who want to become creators but need a simple interface.
That's why I think user friendly compilations like epiQuickLookMaker, epiCreatorLite can help. People should be able to just launch a scene and start customizing things without having to read a single page. If they want to be able to do more, they can dig into guides like Remix a look for your own personal use and epiCreator detailed guide for creators, but that shouldn't be necessary.

Nobody should have to do it all.
If you're an animator, don't know anything about lighting, designing looks, designing user interfaces, optimizing performance, a VR ready template should take care of all of that for you, the way epiTemplate aims to do.

__________________

Facial expressions and animations are where some creators shine and I desperately need them to check this stuff out and remix some of their scenes, or offer their future scenes with these features. Programmers can write plugins, designers create assets, people like me can put things together, but few can create animations and facial expressions like @jyy @xxxa @Androinz @Chill_PopRun @vamurai @Nicho @abc tits @Ruthven2000 @KittyMocap @ZENmocap @ReignMocap @VamTimbo @flyroxy @VirtAmateur @TGC @ispinox @PetaZwega @Ruthven2000 @Slam Thunderhide @RizkyBizz @s p l i n e VR @AlpacaLaps @sxs4 @NLvam and a few more that I cannot think off right this second.

I hope they check this stuff out because it's VR optimized but also works perfectly for the desktop.

__________________

PS:
I don't have a Patreon, all my stuff is free. If you use the template scene, you don't need to refer to any of my stuff in the dependencies, you can keep it as light as you want. I just want more content tailored for VR.

I'm not a programmer and wouldn't have been able to put together this stuff without free content from all the community mentioned in the scene credits, without permission from some creators like @RenVR @Alter3go @Riddler @ReignMocap and some direct help via PMs by @SPQR @MacGruber @Acid Bubbles @everlaster @hazmhox @ky1001 @Awas and possibly others that I apologize to for forgetting here (PM me).

I just don't want creators to spend time reinventing the wheel, I want them to jump in, make great scenes for VR, so that I can enjoy them

 

[Hexenv88]

and now even vamx has more support (3300) than actual games like Captain Hardcore (3200) & Slaves of Rome (1400) ?

ain't looking too good for the others

I agree.

While I do like Slaves of Rome, Lust from beyond, Sin VR, VR paradise etc. VAM stands alone. while some are just RPG's on the desktop and others are pretty neet VR experiences. They don't compare to VAM, even games like Captain hardcore or mirage are no where near as intuitive or as vast in content. games like VR paradise are cool if you just want to chill out and watch strippers. Captain hardcore (From what i can remember its been a while since I used it) tries to mmic VAM on a very small scale. you can do basic stuff in there with looks clothing and props. But VAM opens the flood gates on customization. the difference in VAM is if you can dream it you can make it. it doesn't even need to be adult oriented. I have used Vam to make simple environments to hang out it like a beach or a home movie theater when I can watch a movie. I have been using VAM actively now for just under 2 years. and i am still amazed at what can be done as i learn new ways to do things and the community behind it is simply amazing. creators like @MacGruber @hazmhox @Acid Bubbles @ZRSX @Watto @Riddler And so many others I haven't mentioned (But deserve credit) have brought VAM to a whole new level. That doesn't mean Vam wont have competition in the future, but right no there is nothing that makes me think VAM has a problem, and with meshed VR's developers and the community of creators that have gathered around the project over the years Vam has cemented its spot in the world of adult game entertainment. Again just my opinion.

 

[hazmhox]

Thank you for the kind words guyz.

I'm gonna be super pragmatic on the subject: beyond the fact that I have an unwavering love for VaM and it is hardly going to change. I rarely get excited for stuffs like these... for a simple reason: they are prototype games focused on a specific feature that is executed better than the competition... because well, they have to if they want to shine.

But the truth is: the sheer number of project started compared to the number of project staying alive and becoming and actual competitor is abysmal.

I don't know if you like graphics novels, but I kinda like some of them from times to times. It's pretty much the same thing. There are a LOT of people starting graphic novels with patreon behinds, they make one or two releases, then you never hear about them ever again.

You have a couple of serious creators like NLT (you should take a look at Genesis Order or Treasure of Nadia, it's pretty cool), but that's pretty much it. They don't have to fear the competition simply because they are only a handful of dedicated studios making great games... and no matter how much teens or beginners devs excited to make a few bucks through a patreon... there is hardly a chance that more than 10% of them will finish a game.

For VaM it's the same. The game is at an extremely sweet spot right now. 1.x is extremely powerful, pretty stable, and the reputation makes it somewhat the best adult game you should try if you like sandboxes. On top of that, you have a really dedicated community with a LOT of free content. Yo udon't even have to consider looking at paid creators to enjoy the game.

Any games trying to tackle the exact same concept as VaM is in for several years of development. And this is exactly why you shouldn't even think (at first glance) that VaM as a serious competitor with Come Closer or any similar project. Only time will tell... and just a simple more accurate clothing sim isn't going to make me think that the game as more potential than VaM.

Also also: videos are meant to "sell" the product. They are generally made in perfect conditions, without pushing the boundaries of the features. I would definitely be curious to see more extreme cases on the manipulation or the clothes or the characters... or simply extreme morphs on the characters. I suspect you would have similar issues as in VaM pretty fast.

Also, for the example of the "poke through", it also depends of your "kink" for the characters. I like realistic characters, and I love small to medium boobz. The "poke" issue for me, does not exists.

Meshed tries with VaM to make a game that answers to every possible case. From normal characters to crazy morphed characters. Anything close to the default character will work flawlessly, anything in the "extreme" category will always need tweaks from the creator. And I would bet a gazillion bucks that any game... any... will have the exact same issue as soon as you're not creating characters that are pretty much "normal" or based on the "default proportions".
It is impossible to ask for a game to handle perfectly every single case.

Anyway, don't get me wrong... working in the industry, I have tremendous respect for any game dev project. I wish Come Closer all the success it deserves... but please, stop thinking that every prototype game is gonna be a VaM killer. At best it will be competition and will emulate meshed creativity to make VaM better

And just like any type of media, competition does not make a game irrelevant. You have tastes, you have preferences... even if Come Closer becomes a great game, it does not prevents you to prefer VaM.

 

[hazmhox]

I might not get the joke or did not get clear enough in my post x'D

 

[ChittarChattar]

I too await rather impatiently for VAM 2....Personally for me there are no competitors for it. Of course the quality and enjoyment of VAM is all down to the creators and community content (to which I am always thankful for).

I wish MeshedVR would give more updates about progress. The alphas would have been better if they allowed some 3rd party content to be added to show case it. I'm not particularly fond of the freaky looks it has so far...

 

[HolySchmidt]

It was just a tech demo, nothing else. If it will be as good as VaM 1 is, I would be happy with it.

 

[epi.noah]

In the early Rift Dev Kit days I was excited to download free demos of people's vision for VR .
VaM is the only thing out there that still gives me that thrill, with an adult twist.
And unlike the early Rift Dev Kit days, we have the tools we need to create our own demos even if we're not a programmer.

__________________

I share what I can, to make it even easier for other creators to build VR friendly, immersive scenes, like this: epiTemplate.
I don't have a Patreon, don't make any money, have nothing to gain from this but more content that may come my way.
People with better programming skills have done the same (and more), which makes VaM better than any alternative in the short term.

In the long term, it needs better physics performance etc. But I do have some shortcuts in that template scene to get great performance and great quality in VR.
__________________

The obvious competition is UE5 because it is more user friendly for people who want to become creators but need a simple interface.
That's why I think user friendly compilations like epiQuickLookMaker, epiCreatorLite can help. People should be able to just launch a scene and start customizing things without having to read a single page. If they want to be able to do more, they can dig into guides like Remix a look for your own personal use and epiCreator detailed guide for creators, but that shouldn't be necessary.

Nobody should have to do it all.
If you're an animator, don't know anything about lighting, designing looks, designing user interfaces, optimizing performance, a VR ready template should take care of all of that for you, the way epiTemplate aims to do.

__________________

Facial expressions and animations are where some creators shine and I desperately need them to check this stuff out and remix some of their scenes, or offer their future scenes with these features. Programmers can write plugins, designers create assets, people like me can put things together, but few can create animations and facial expressions like @jyy @xxxa @Androinz @Chill_PopRun @vamurai @Nicho @abc tits @Ruthven2000 @KittyMocap @ZENmocap @ReignMocap @VamTimbo @flyroxy @VirtAmateur @TGC @ispinox @PetaZwega @Ruthven2000 @Slam Thunderhide @RizkyBizz @s p l i n e VR @AlpacaLaps @sxs4 @NLvam and a few more that I cannot think off right this second.

I hope they check this stuff out because it's VR optimized but also works perfectly for the desktop.

__________________

PS:
I don't have a Patreon, all my stuff is free. If you use the template scene, you don't need to refer to any of my stuff in the dependencies, you can keep it as light as you want. I just want more content tailored for VR.

I'm not a programmer and wouldn't have been able to put together this stuff without free content from all the community mentioned in the scene credits, without permission from some creators like @RenVR @Alter3go @Riddler @ReignMocap and some direct help via PMs by @SPQR @MacGruber @Acid Bubbles @everlaster @hazmhox @ky1001 @Awas and possibly others that I apologize to for forgetting here (PM me).

I just don't want creators to spend time reinventing the wheel, I want them to jump in, make great scenes for VR, so that I can enjoy them

epiTemplateLite is here for the same purpose. Lighter, with much less dependencies, designed to quickly remix or make scenes.

 

[epi.noah]

also for creators to use it it might help to drop the NC dependencies, i think it's more likely for creators to integrate it in patreon stuff that gets updated often than the free stuff that are mosty smaller one-time scenes made for fun

i noticed i had my spqr performance plugin license as PC and fixed that, I set it to CC-BY-SA and updated it, if you want to get rid of that

Can't find non-NC alternatives with the same functions. But creators will be able to trim it further down depending on their needs. They don't need to have this var in their dependencies, so if their scenes work without some of these plugins, they can drop those

 

[Vam_SlesaR]

I will express a couple of my thoughts. VAM is great in its boundless creativity, thanks to the creators of mods, the functionality continues to increase, and this is exactly what makes it so popular. VAM allows you to realize almost any (and if you know blender and unity, then any) fantasies and the only one who can compete with it now is HS2, but there is no physics and so on. I've heard that some VAM users are making a game with similar functionality on UE5, but I can't say anything specific about it

 

[epi.noah]

We don't really need UE5 or Unity 2022 to improve the visuals beyond the cartoonish looks. AAA games stream a world of content but room-scale VR only needs to render a room. We can use all 8K textures and it would still not be where the bottleneck is.

A faster physics engine would help the performance of course. And a second normal map for details would also help there (I could use a seamless detail texture for the skin at a minimal performance cost. And yeah, the new rendering pipeline, RT, DLSS, etc. But that's not the only reason a new engine is exciting.

This stuff is cool (Speech-to-text, GPT3, text-to-speech, real-time lip-syncing)

A context-aware animation AI would make it complete.
It's what I expect Apple VR to do with Siri one day.

UE5 and Unity 2022 are exciting because they would get integration for such tools with time. Right now, I imagine that coders are trying to bring this stuff to VaM without access to the latest tools.

VaM would not just be scenarios, it would be a place to go back to where what happens depends on what you do.
Creators would probably make a room where you can watch Siri and Alexa bang dance while you shout instructions.

Others will catch up with what VaM can do today. And by the time they get there in functionality, VaM 2.0 could be out, updated to an engine that has integrations for these tools that you might be able to find on the asset marketplace.

Until then, any improvements to the physics performance would be pretty cool. GPUs can double in performance with every generation but the single-thread performance of CPUs only increases incrementally.