VAM 2.0

I am very thankful for everything that we have with VAM and the Hub. I am in awe of how VAM was created to be an environment in which various pieces can be added over time, a framework in which there is a fundamental capability that can be built upon. I look forward to VaM2, and I appreciate all that we have now. What you all have done is awesome and much appreciated.
 
Will VAM 2.0 fix the huge problem VAM1.x has with sorting content?
Frankly it blows my mind that all content, looks, scenes, clothes, dependencies etc simply exists in a single .var format. We really need a content hub that lets us see and sort our addons folder by scenes and characters.
 
Will VAM 2.0 fix the huge problem VAM1.x has with sorting content?
Frankly it blows my mind that all content, looks, scenes, clothes, dependencies etc simply exists in a single .var format. We really need a content hub that lets us see and sort our addons folder by scenes and characters.
The overall topic of dependencies and dependency management been discussed a little. I don't think sorting has been discussed, but it shouldn't really matter how the files are sorted in the folder, what matters is how content is sorted within VAM itself or within the addon kit UI.

CTRL+F related keywords in the latest version of the FAQ https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Yoxbd4GkhbwcX9fPekwOF21LYwZLLn8V8V3imh8swIM/edit?tab=t.0 (which is still called "Alpha3" faq even though there will be no Alpha3, it should say Beta1)

E.g.
Q: is there any rework of dependencies for vam2? (because indirect and direct dependencies is a nightmare)

A: I don't yet have packaging completed in VaM2. The addon kit can now make addons (which come in folders that can be zipped) and those can be shared and used by the game, but there is not yet a system for handling dependencies and other details of packaging. The plan is to only include direct dependencies this time, but there is still going to be the issue of creators not fully paying attention to what they are using and ending up with dozens of dependencies on complex scenes. Some of this burden just falls on the creators to be more careful with what they are using. What we can do is better report the dependencies and show the creator where they are so they can decide if they want to clean them up or not.
and a bunch more after that bit
 
Frankly it blows my mind that all content, looks, scenes, clothes, dependencies etc simply exists in a single .var format. We really need a content hub that lets us see and sort our addons folder by scenes and characters.

Have you really thought about that, and checked the var files? By "checked" I mean, really checked... looked how the vars are made, how the content is handled in VAM and how the creators are handling their content?

I'm gonna "summarize" the wider underlying issue mentionned in the quote from @everlaster, but in VAM1.

An example we were discussing with the team recently:
My "working" version of VAM is the one with the most content, but I'm very picky on what I get. That being said, I have around 100/120 pages of clothing. From there, being a big fan of cool panties, from what I gathered, I have around 25/30 pages of those.

Now, if I hit the tags and check panty or panties, the final number of pages is... drum roll... 4. 4 pages, and one of those is only vanilla content made by Meshed. Which means that, from 29 pages of community made panties, if I filter by tag, I only get 3 pages.

What I'm saying here is that: the tools exists in VAM to ease the life of the end-user, yet, creators don't even take the time to properly tag the resource. You could make the best search engine possible... if creators/users don't tag properly, your search engine or filtering system is pointless.

Now, scenes or characters... what does this mean? Let's take "character" for instance... what is a character? It's the var file name? It's the legacy look file name? It's the appearance preset file name? Is it a scene?
You see where I'm getting at? There are 4 ways to save a character in VAM 1, how do you identify a character?

VAM 1 is the result of an iterative development that has know several ways of saving data. It still handles legacy content so people not really reading or trying to understand the "current" ways of saving/sharing assets are still using old methods.

And you don't even have to think about the var system, in general, people are really bad at naming/organizing their assets.

So maybe it "blows your mind", but the var system is a pretty clever and versatile system. With a simple system like this, people already have a hard time tagging their content properly, managing what's inside a package, and naming stuffs to ease search... imagine having a specific type of package for every single type of resource... this would be even worse.

If you look at creators who are doing a proper job at this, you can easily find proper dependencies from a single resource. A character properly released shows its dependencies and what scenes use it.

All that said, I won't say that searching through the game can't be improved. And I think it probably will at least a tinsy bit : )

But you have to understand that the completely "sandboxy" or "modding" style of VAM, with a really open way of creating, whatever you want, however you want... even if you make absolutely no effort learning the "best practices"... makes the task very hard.

I remember a discussion a long time ago with someone saying "the search engine in the game is crap, I can't find a character if I don't recall its name or the creator name in my 1.5TB of vars".

You can't succeed in pleasing people who think you can get a result from a situation like this.

You want the search engine to answer to "tall male character with gray hair and a big nose" in 1.5TB worth of data? We fall back on the same issue: if creators haven't tagged the character with "gray hairs", "tall", "big nose", you won't be able to get any hit.

Even if I agree, UX can be improved on the search... most of the results you'll get only depends on the ability of the creators to make their content "searchable" if you know what I mean :)

And I haven't dived into that "1.5TB" issue, where people expect a search engine to search fast, and answer to every possible weird search scheme in 25000 vars. ;)
 
I thought about that a while ago and think it would be best to block clothing uploads if they dont have at least one tag. Dont know if this is possible though. But it would be a step forward.
 
I thought about that a while ago and think it would be best to block clothing uploads if they dont have at least one tag. Dont know if this is possible though. But it would be a step forward.

Or allow to do some community tagging for clothing: users who use a specific var can add tags. If a certain minimum number or percentage of tags has been added, the tag becomes definite (or a mod can be in the loop). I wouldn't mind tagging the stuff I use. An incentive for users to allow tagging the stuff is that it would allow them to sort their clothing according to tags. You could even go nuts and look at users who generated a lot of good tags, and give their tags a higher trust rating, etc.

TL;DR allow users to tag the VARS they use and keep track of it in the hub.
 
I'm new here, but I hope you don't mind me inserting my two cents or is it sense...? idk... This conversation interests me though...I've only had this application for about 2 weeks now and I've already experienced this issue with clothing as well as what I would classify as "bloated" content.

If I download a look, I don't personally want the 5 add-ons required to beautify the screenshots. This bloat is then duplicated if for example the dependencies used were X versions behind the current cause now I have multiple versions of the same exact plugin. Then the whole thing is compounded by the dependencies also coming with demo scenes, additional clothing, hair, looks, etc...

As a systems engineer, this bugs the shit out of me.

The .var sysem is clever in it's simplicity as it allowed for a lot of custom content without installation or management system similar to how PC game mods work. Plug and play or drag and drop, essentially...

I won't presume to know the culture of this community, but was the decision to build ontop of legacy to prevent breaking it's wealth of crowd-sourced content?
 
I'm new here, but I hope you don't mind me inserting my two cents or is it sense...? idk... This conversation interests me though...I've only had this application for about 2 weeks now and I've already experienced this issue with clothing as well as what I would classify as "bloated" content.

[...]

The bloat you're refering to, or eventually the dependency system is just inherently how the thing works. In both cases it's either:
  • The user gathering too much stuffs (we can't do nothing about that, there is no UI/UX that will be perfect to browser 29368 different clothes/looks/appearance efficiently).
  • The dependencies are just a matter of how well a creator can pack themselves a proper var file. An appearance for instance, should never pack dependencies besides the required ones (let's say a texture set for the skin). It's not a game/software problem, it's a user problem again : )
Ultimately, you can always download the source file WITHOUT the dependencies... you just have to pray that it was done properly sadly.

I don't really understand what you're asking at the end tho. Are you refering to VAM 2? Or just VAM by itself?
 
VaM2 should solve some of this. The addons that will be created from our Addon Kit will generally just be the lowest denominator of objects. For example, a Skin (materials and textures) addon would only include materials and textures that are related that can attach to a specific Figure (character model). While there may be many variants of the skin in that addon (different makeup, different eyes, etc.), the addon will generally just include that Skin, and not other things like Blend Shapes (morphs) or Environments (scenes). The granularity is lower.

VaM2 then also has runtime saves and presets, which combine the pieces into a whole. Those would be packaged differently than the addons that were used in the preset/save.

So someone who wanted to release a full character would actually be releasing multiple files:

1. Skin (textures/materials) addon containing the main skin materials and maybe some variants
2. BlendShape (morph) addon containing the custom character morphs
3. A package (similar to var) that contains the character presets and maybe some scenes for "show-off" in context. This package would have dependencies on the addon files, and possibly other addons for the "show-off" part. But this package would be optional as the main content is in the more granular addons themselves that have no dependencies.

The addons will be packaged in something like a var too (it will be named different to distinguish). Currently addons are just folders that could be zipped for easy sharing, but they must be extracted to the local program directory before they can be used. They cannot be used directly. This will all be automated. You will drop zipped addons into a folder similar to what happened in VaM1, and they will be extracted and catalogued into a database for quick access and search.
 
Now, scenes or characters... what does this mean? Let's take "character" for instance... what is a character? It's the var file name? It's the legacy look file name? It's the appearance preset file name? Is it a scene?
You see where I'm getting at? There are 4 ways to save a character in VAM 1, how do you identify a character?

VAM 1 is the result of an iterative development that has know several ways of saving data. It still handles legacy content so people not really reading or trying to understand the "current" ways of saving/sharing assets are still using old methods.

My bad, I knew it wasn't actual definition fitting bloat... It was just how I defined it.

I was asking about VaM, not VAM 2. I believe that's what you're referring to in your post here. I've seen other stuff about legacy vs new and the interchangable terms for things.
 
My bad [...]

No problem! :D

Yeah, we're on a VAM 2 thread so I wasn't sure where you were going :']

Yes, VAM evolved over the years ensuring that everything was always legacy compatible. If you go on the reddit and find some very very (very) old stuffs, you can load them and enjoy them.

Then came improved presets, new features... meshed definitely wanted to keep everything compatible (but correct me if I'm wrong @meshedvr)

Making "breaking" changes and saying to the community "yeah, forget about the 2500 looks/plugins/clothes you have released of the years, now it works like this", is very complex in a game/project like this. Only huge companies can afford that and force people to switch to a newer version (or you can eventually do it during the beta phase).

Also, in a content-driven community, you have to keep people motivated to contribute. If half their content suddenly becomes unusable... your gonna loose a part of them.

This is a complex choice to make, but I think that's the proper one in a situation like this : )
 
Yeah, we're on a VAM 2 thread so I wasn't sure where you were going :']

That's my faux pas... I didn't come here through the front door, more like climbed through a window... I have no idea what this thread is about... 😬

I saw a preview of the comment above talking about the var files and I was dissecting them to see how they work so I could try and fix my quarks with it. I was really just trying to learn something.

Edit: You weren't lying, says VAM 2.0 at the top......... 😄
 
The user gathering too much stuffs (we can't do nothing about that, there is no UI/UX that will be perfect to browser 29368 different clothes/looks/appearance efficiently).
Actually there is...
You want white female with specific age, big boobs, long blond straigh hair... Or maybe orc female? Proper tagging would solve this. But tags should be required. Maybe you have 20000 clothes but there's only 200 shoes and 20 ballet shoes within. Tags should be connected - if I choose shoes I don't wanna see tags connected with other clothes.
Also it would be good to mark assets that require some non hub stuff.
Rating system for scenes - only available from VAM AFTER loading the scene and using it for predefined time. Do not allow to rate before because it's pointless.
 
Actually there is...
You want white female with specific age, big boobs, long blond straigh hair... Or maybe orc female? Proper tagging would solve this. But tags should be required. Maybe you have 20000 clothes but there's only 200 shoes and 20 ballet shoes within. Tags should be connected - if I choose shoes I don't wanna see tags connected with other clothes.
Also it would be good to mark assets that require some non hub stuff.
Rating system for scenes - only available from VAM AFTER loading the scene and using it for predefined time. Do not allow to rate before because it's pointless.

You did not solve the problem of browsing through thousands upon thousands of assets.
You "fixed" (again) a problem that I already talked about like 8 posts above which is proper content creation and it falls down on the creator, not the user.

Taxonomy and categorization helps until a point. If you have 30K looks, and in those 30K, you have 25K of blonds because you like blonds... you will STILL have to find the one "you can't remember the name nor the scene she was in nor if she had long or short hairs" which does not help you even with proper tagging and categorization.

I've worked in frontend UI/UX for 15 years, there is no ideal UX, code or optimization for browsing stupid amount of content. Especially if said content grows over and over again overtime. There are only tools that allows narrowing your research, and it's only efficient IF you know what you're looking for AND the content is properly managed. And it's even more complex in a situation like VAM, where users expect this to be fast when they have 3TB of data to filter from.

Rating system, I'm pretty sure it's not gonna happen: no one does that. It's already hard to get proper feedback from users, if you'd ask for using the content before reviewing, first you'd need to store data about usage (which is a no-no in our situation because it's a privacy issue). And you would have to motivate people to come back to the hub after playing something. Only a thin margin does it without that requirement, so with it, it's easy to assume that we can drop the rating system : )

Also it would be good to mark assets that require some non hub stuff.

It's mentionned at download "hub hosted". That said it's not "obvious" in the UI ingame if you don't click on "open on the hub".
 
No one yet has built software that can read the user's mind, but it sure seems like dear old Elon would like to try...
 
Will it be possible to build an immersive sim experience? Rather than one that is entirely scripted. VAM has all the customization, which is wonderful, but I would really like that paired to VR Hot's sim play. Only not janky.
 
Will it be possible to build an immersive sim experience? Rather than one that is entirely scripted. VAM has all the customization, which is wonderful, but I would really like that paired to VR Hot's sim play. Only not janky.

What's "build an immersive sim experience" for you?

Let's assume most limitations from VAM1 are removed. (it's only assumptions so take that with a grain of salt), yes you could override main components of VAM and create your own interpretation of it. Which means, understanding C#, overriding the player controller, implementing VR Hot's controls, making meaningful content yourself for that situation.
 
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