How to be a successful VaM creator (financially)?

[VamWizard]

Initially, I thought it was only a matter of creating good plugins/scenes/looks etc, but sometimes I see scenes like this, which had many views and likes but did not yield many patrons (looking at the grapheon, this creator only got 2 patrons when he made this scene, even with more than 10,000 downloads).
So, what is your opinion on what makes a VaM creator able to be financially successful?

 

[shesky]

I'm following this, very curious to know myself. I don't understand how it works. 10,000 downloads and only 2 patrons. I thought the whole idea of paid looks is that you have to pay for the look. So how is it that 10,000 downloads are done yet the creator doesn't seem to profit from it? Very strange.

Edit. I see that the creator made the look free, so that could explain a lot in this case. And it does appear to be the only item on his Patreon Page. But still....

 

[VamWizard]

Edit. I see that the creator made the look free, so that could explain a lot in this case. And it does appear to be the only item on his Patreon Page. But still....

Thats right, even though the scene is free, less than 0.02% of the people who downloaded the supposedly good scene decided to support the creator. I'm trying to figure out why cases like this happen

 

[MacGruber]

0.02% conversion rate sounds about normal in this community for free or early access content. I'm seeing similar % numbers, just with way more downloads. 10K downloads isn't really much, the large majority of players is silent and will never comment, like or pay for anything. And yes, at that rate the community is too small to be "financially successful" as a creator. Not if you do things legally and have to pay income taxes (etc.) on the money you make. At least when you do quality stuff, for low-quality spam its a different calculation but you still scratch on minimum-wage...there are simply easier ways to make money, if that's what you are after.

 

[shesky]

On a much smaller scale for example, on the recently paid looks that I have done. The download count on the hub reads considerably higher than the actual subscribers. I just assumed that you had to be a Patron to download the paid content. In an example, 17 downloads equal 17 patrons, or at least, people who have paid, but it doesn't appear to be the case. How does it work out ?

 

[VamWizard]

On a much smaller scale for example, on the recently paid looks that I have done. The download count on the hub reads considerably higher than the actual subscribers. I just assumed that you had to be a Patron to download the paid content. In an example, 17 downloads equal 17 patrons, or at least, people who have paid, but it doesn't appear to be the case. How does it work out ?

I entered your product https://hub.virtamate.com/resources/baby-s.28013/ and clicked on the link "go to the paid site". This made the download counter immediately increase by 1 (even though I'm not a supporter). Apparently this is how that can happen.

 

[shesky]

I entered your product https://hub.virtamate.com/resources/baby-s.28013/ and clicked on the link go to the paid site. This made the download counter immediately increase by 1 (even though I'm not a supporter). Apparently this is how that can happen.

I see, so it should actually read 'views'. Makes more sense. Thanks for that ? But then again there is a 'views' counter. I'm confused ?

 

[VamWizard]

But then again there is a 'views' counter. I'm confused ?

I think the views is for the number of accesses to the https://hub.virtamate.com/resources/baby-s.28013/ page. The downloads is for the number of unique clicks to the "go to the paid site" button that is inside https://hub.virtamate.com/resources/baby-s.28013/ page.

 

[shesky]

I think the views is for the number of accesses to the https://hub.virtamate.com/resources/baby-s.28013/ page. The downloads is for the number of unique clicks to the "go to the paid site" button that is inside https://hub.virtamate.com/resources/baby-s.28013/ page.

Then decide against it. Why bother doing that? Never mind ....

 

[mastermike8800]

So I've been making content for just over six months. When I started I tried to keep my expectations low but I wasn't expecting the first few months to be so brutal! But I stayed dedicated and now every time a new patreon member shows up, the endorphens start pumping and I get back to work! Not making nearly enough to call it 'a living' but its nice to make a little extra on the side if your going to be doing stuff in VAM anyway. Here are some things I wish I knew when I started though:

1. Just start releasing stuff! When I first started I made a super long movie that took me almost six months to make. IMO was worth the $7 dollars I was asking for but because nobody knew who I was, they didn't pay me any attention. If I was smart I would of made my movie in chunks and released it as I worked on it because pacing out your content is super important for engagement I am finding out. You can make the best scene ever and you'll release it on a Tuesday and your biggest potential fan will be on vacation that week and when he returns to the hub you're scene is now pages down on 'latest resources' and they just don't find it.

2. Really dedicate some time to understanding VAR files! People really wanted the movie I made to be a scene but I didn't plan ahead and now if you look at the dependency list it says you need 112 Vars. (That's not accurate you actually need much less) But I know that is a hard pass for many users. Keep dependencies low. My latest project only uses like 15 VARs and they are all some of the most widely used VARs on the hub.

3. Try to have a free component. I have seen this done in many ways, for me I always have free demo versions of my scenes. But one creator I saw (can't remember who) did a really good job on a look that you could download for free but the clothing set that was featured on the model (where they clearly put the bulk of the work) was paid content. Free content always get likes and reviews. Paid content, not so much.

4. Update your resources. I'm not saying release things in imperfect states but having a catalogue of resources you can go back and add to is a great way to to get exposure on old things. Obviously don't be spammy but the hub already has ways of preventing spam.

5. Just focus on outputting work you'd enjoy. Individual commissions are fine if you are compensated well but trying to put the impetus on your patreon's to tell you what they want you to do next isn't the way to go IMO.

6. If making scenes, consider leaving room for character customization. This is something I am surprised more creators don't do. It takes a little more thought and testing but it is possible to allow for use customization in already completed scenes without too much issue. I think the girls I create in VAM are hot but I bet you $20 bucks someone disagrees with me. More opportunities for people to make use of their collection of looks only increases the audience size.

7. Do the busy work. I know that in VAM it is so easy to take shortcuts in scenes for personal use. Maybe I am just venting now about content I have seen up on the hub. But it drives me nuts that so many scenes have the same crappy looking floating buttons that just stay there through out the scene. Having a collapsible menu is one of those things that nobody but me will praise you for but I do think it sets the professionals apart from the rest. That is just one example, though.

8. DO NOT RELY ON PATREON TO HELP ORGANIZE YOUR CONTENT FOR YOUR PATREONS. I have had many people struggle to locate all of the content available for download. I've had people stop supporting me because of it. That is why I set up a master list page on the hub that I direct all new members to.

9. Another thing you'll realize about people who are willing to pay for VAM content, they aren't schmucks and they don't really come to support you. I don't mean to sound harsh but I just really want to stress how important a regular release schedule is. Most of my supporters come to buy something, many will cancel after one day. Don't let this discourage you. They will return if they like your content and you offer them something new. EDIT: I do want to give a shout out to some people who have supported and encouraged me from day one. Those people do exist and are awesome to have around but I can't image those types making up more than 2% of your total subscriber base.

10. Oh and your stuff will most likely be pirated but if that is something that would upset you I'd say starting a patreon is probably not worth the stress. But you can learn from it and make your future content more secure.

Some of this I learned from watching SPQR who I met right as I was starting my patreon page. That guy pretty much does weekly releases on his patreon page and I thought he was a nut at first but once I started doing it I saw that he was definitely onto something.

TL,DR: It is doable but don't expect anything over night. Time = Profit. If you need it as a means of financial support right now that really isn't possible, but if you build up a catalogue overtime, everytime you release a scene or look, patronage seems more appealing to the average Joe. That is why I am inclined to believe that there are way more people willing to pay for content than you might think.

Anyway sorry for the long ass post. I'd be interested in hearing other creator's experiences as well.

 

[MacGruber]

When I first started I made a super long movie that took me almost six months to make. IMO was worth the $7 dollars I was asking for but because nobody knew who I was, they didn't pay me any attention

That happens even for established popular creators. I had several times that a people simply miss major releases I spend weeks or months on. It's simply drowned in all the other small releases, very random whether people see it or don't. At the same time the might praise you for another minor inconsequential update to some existing thing you just spend 2 hours on.....can be very frustrating. Why does that happen? Because if you downloaded something from the Hub while logged in, you automatically put that on "watch", meaning you get an email notification. So, if a resource has 500.000 or a million downloads (e.g. Life, Essentials, LogicBricks)....and you post an update to that resource, a LOT of people will see that. But even if you follow a creator here, you won't get a notification for new resources posted, it just appears in your news feed, which most probably don't even know it exists. So, even if you made a name for yourself, its very hard to get the word out, if you had a major new release.

Want an example? Look at my Benchmark scene. Visually and technologically probably among the most high-end scenes out there...and its vital for anyone who would like to upgrade their PC for VaM, yet it does only have some 6K downloads. I spend some 130-150 hours working on that, barely anyone saw it. (ok, the discussion thread about it has 65K views, but I think that's mostly people discussing in the thread)

 

[VamWizard]

Thanks for your inspiring post mastermike8800! Your tips are also very much appreciated!

@MacGruber I may be wrong but something tells me you still don't regret doing the benchmark tool. There are some things we just feel like we have to do.

 

[MacGruber]

@MacGruber I may be wrong but something tells me you still don't regret doing the benchmark tool. There are some things we just feel like we have to do.

Lost a lot of patreons over that. Also when finally taking the time to make the tutorials "everyone" asked me to make. Both were things I did not need for myself, yet costing me hundreds of hours of precious free time. I made them for the community. Very frustrating when the community doesn't see that. One of the reasons I stopped any major VaM work almost a year ago.

 

[VamWizard]

Lost a lot of patreons over that. Also when finally taking the time to make the tutorials "everyone" asked me to make. Both were things I did not need for myself, yet costing me hundreds of hours of precious free time. I made them for the community. Very frustrating when the community doesn't see that. One of the reasons I stopped any major VaM work almost a year ago.

That's very unfortunate.

I've also wasted a lot of time on things that didn't have much future when I was developing games in Unity. One of the reasons I came to VaM was that I thought it would be possible to release stuff faster.

 

[mastermike8800]

I've also wasted a lot of time on things that didn't have much future when I was developing games in Unity. One of the reasons I came to VaM was that I thought it would be possible to release stuff faster.

I don't think you're wrong and I still think there is still a lot of space for content and niches that haven't been explored all around the hub. We will see how VAM 2.0 shakes things up but the possibilities now are already pretty vast and it is super accessible to even schlubs like me. Best to stay ahead of the curve so I say just go for it.

 

[Molf81]

As someone who does pay for content, I thought I'd give my two cents as to what I look for in a Creator and what makes me hang about.

1) First of all, understand that I have limited spare funds, so I tend to support about 4 Creators at any one time. 1 or 2 that I stick around with, and 1 or 2 that I interchange.
2) Publishing some looks / clothes / scenes or whatever for free, helps you come up in the resource search more easily, and helps me assess whether you're worth the investment. I won't follow you if I don't know you exist, or I don't know the quality of your work. Someone mentioned publishing demos, but personally I find those frustrating.
3) Publish a good mix of mainstream and more niche things. The mainstream stuff provides a good back catalogue, but the niche stuff will keep me interested to see what might pop up in my inbox next week. For example, do we really need another Scarlett or Angelina look? Work on something else someone hasn't done.
4) Establish a schedule of when you're going to release things, and make sure you publish something at least once a month. If a payment cycle goes round with no new updates, I might as well unsubscribe and check you out a few months down the line.
5) That said, don't over promise - i.e. don't say "this resource will be released by X" and then miss the date. Say "I'm working on this release and will publish it when it's ready".
6) An untapped resource might be "group commissions". I've not seen anyone do it, yet. Individual commissions can be expensive, but if a small handful of your patrons have requested a particular idea, ask them if they'd like to club together to get it commissioned. I'd wince at paying $100+ for a commission, but $20 split between me and 4 other likeminded chaps... why the hell not.

Again, just my two cent / ramblings.

 

[DarkFantasy]

I can only answer from my perspective as a buyer. I have quite a few paid for scenes, plugins, textures, etc but I only do so if it is something unique and really catches my interest. I tend to keep an eye on the creators that are doing regular stuff in the genre's I am interested in. If you flip flop then I might sign up for one month to get the scene but I wont maintain a monthly subscription and that is, I assume, what you are looking for. I believe I am fairly typical on that front.

I personally don't sell my stuff as (I even do free commission work depending on the ask):
- I prefer it be used by anyone who feels like it and love seeing modifications that make it better
- I enjoy creating it anyway
- The math does not really work for me right now and making it "work" would suck all the joy out of the effort

Give it time. There is no way this platform and its audience will not grow. There is nothing else like it!

 

[Nobis]

There are people who deserve more, and there are creators who deserve less. That's how life works.

One things for sure, IF, you're working your as* off, sooner or later you should make it. That's how free market works. The best, they always succeed, the rest, is just complaining.

 

[Toonen1988]

Money should be a secondary focus, not your primary focus. If you focus to much on the money, than you have a high chance that you quit to fast or have a black out or find it useless what you do.

The most important thing is, do you have fun making content for VaM? Do you like it? If yes, then start slowly, be active and build something up. But it takes time, and many of your free time. If you only have money on your mind, and you don't achieve anything within a half year, I bet that you will quit very quickly. While maybe a few months later, you can become successful but you never found out, because you quit to fast.

But if you like what you do, if you are having fun, than you will see that money comes from itself. You can't force it. Many entrepreneurs and companies don't make a lot of profit in the first years. It takes sometimes years to build something up.

Same thing with being a creator on VaM. It takes time and patience. And you will simply give up to fast if money is your primary focus.

My issue that I have is, things I create are never good enough. I always want to make something better. That's a issue I have when it comes to creating content.

 

[mastermike8800]

My issue that I have is, things I create are never good enough. I always want to make something better. That's a issue I have when it comes to creating content.

I made content for about two years before I felt like I was good enough to start a patreon. However, when I finally worked up gusto to release content I thought was worth paying for, I was surprised that I had this backlog of 'decent enough' work to offer my supporters as a bonus. Just keep that in mind as develop your skills.

Also, a good way to gauge where you are at is to utilize the hub's media tab or Vam's discord. Eventually someone will send you a message asking if you'll release the look/scene.

Good luck.

 

[VamWizard]

Money should be a secondary focus, not your primary focus. If you focus to much on the money, than you have a high chance that you quit to fast or have a black out or find it useless what you do.

The most important thing is, do you have fun making content for VaM? Do you like it? If yes, then start slowly, be active and build something up. But it takes time, and many of your free time. If you only have money on your mind, and you don't achieve anything within a half year, I bet that you will quit very quickly. While maybe a few months later, you can become successful but you never found out, because you quit to fast.

But if you like what you do, if you are having fun, than you will see that money comes from itself. You can't force it. Many entrepreneurs and companies don't make a lot of profit in the first years. It takes sometimes years to build something up.

Same thing with being a creator on VaM. It takes time and patience. And you will simply give up to fast if money is your primary focus.

My issue that I have is, things I create are never good enough. I always want to make something better. That's a issue I have when it comes to creating content.

I agree with you, nobody with a focus on money should venture into game development. My goal is to do it full-time, but that's only possible if you're financially successful with your creations.

I started learning how to work with Unity a little over 7 years ago and I haven't given up yet. I've realized during this time that I was working hard but not working smart (I wasted a lot of time on things that had no future). But at least I've learned a lot in this period.

VAM is impressive because it already has an excellent base for making a good story, being very powerful in customizations and animations, as well as supporting both VR and desktop. So I was thinking about shifting my focus to VAM. But remember what I said about working smart? Before investing a lot of time in VAM, it's important to know if there's a good chance of achieving my goal with it (being able to work fulll-time). After posting this thead, I did some research on creators and found out that it may be worth taking the risk, and even if I fail, I can use the material I created for other things.

 

[VAMIC]

I subscribe to about 10 people a month, usually the same core 6 and then I change around the other 4 every few months or if I just want to get something particular. When I do subscribe, I never think of myself as paying for the content, but more tipping someone because I appreciate their creativity, like in a regular patronage system. For that relationship to change, it seems like there would need to be a centralized alternative that acts as intermediary between user and content outside of Patreon.

The issue is VAM isn't really a moneymaking venture, nor should it reasonably be thought of one unless you own licensing rights for the software. The thing that makes it special is that it's like the old internet where people just make things for fun, not so they can paywall it or slap an advertisement on it. At the same time, creators are right to want more for spending hours of labor on their creations only to get what seems like no interest. There should probably be a centralized payment structure where all creators who meet a certain threshold of production are guaranteed a minimum monthly payment by the distribution channel (in this case, a Hub) and then can get additional financial bonuses if their content performs better or worse. In this case, said hub would take no more than 15-20% of the proceeds to maintain servers and software while 80-85% of revenues was distributed among creators. This would likely require monthly fees for users to the distributor and formal employment status rather than the scattershot independent contractor nature of patreon and its analogues, but the truth is, if you want to make money in a market, you're always better off acknowledging you're a worker and getting together to try to get a better deal. In a system like this, people could and would continue to do things for free if they didn't want to be a worker and the general order that has sustained this community would likely be preserved.

 

[mastermike8800]

There should probably be a centralized payment structure where all creators who meet a certain threshold of production are guaranteed a minimum monthly payment by the distribution channel (in this case, a Hub)

This has been suggested a few times and the official response from MeshedVR has always been "I have no interest in that" he also said he will always be in favor of people creating paid content here since VAM itself is patreon supported paid content, which I can respect.
Even with there being no quality standards, similarly to the way Steam works, I haven't seen in any super egregious money grabs, and even if they are I'm sure they aren't successful.
I do often day dream on different ways content creators could collaborate with each other. I have some ideas but it really only works if everybody gains something. If I use someone's quality work in one of my scenes I'd be happy to offer their patreons some form of access to a build of my scene or something. Money and content for them, marketing for me. It would just take some coordination and I've never really approached anyone to do that. Hey, I do ubiquitously use @MacGruber plugins. If you want to offer your patreons one of my scenes for free just let me know! No pressure though not everybody shares my patreons' taste.
I think so far the system works well even if getting everything you want is a bit pricey.

 

[hazmhox]

Depending on what your goal is... I'm gonna be blunt honest: Quality or anything not "pure sex" or "looks" does not pay.

You simply have to look at one of the most insane dev of the community, Acid. He has under 150 patreons and yet releases the best plugins around here.
On the other side of that spectrum, you have low effort mocaps, low effort scenes, random / low effort looks... you see a bunch of patreons with over 300 subscription. And for a thin margin... you have some extremely talented people that have a really personal artistic direction with looks that tend to be somewhat successful.

You can also take Spacedog as an example, even tho you might argue that his production rate is not high enough to yield subscriptions. His content is top tier in the way it is produced. He has under 50 patreons.

Just like real life, the average Joe does not look for quality... but random shit or quantity. And in the case of VaM, if it's not really sex/looks focused, you pretty much have no audience for that.

If you're in for the money : do average sex loops, once per week. Or do looks (hoping you're extremely talented). At some point, you'll get at least a tiny bit of audience.
If your goal is anything but that (plugins, enviro, sound, VFX, extremely high quality scenes with months/weeks of work...) you're in for a disappointment.

 

[VamWizard]

Thank you for the tips hazmhox. Yes, I've been able to identify that there are top tier programmers like AcidBubbles and MacGruber who don't earn something equivalent to the quality of their work. I know how to code but I don't think my skills are on par with theirs, so I immediately noticed that making plugins wasn't a good idea
Maybe I'll make some plugins to improve my workflow and release them for free, but it won't be my focus.
About looks, I simply don't have the talent for it.
I'm thinking of making short stories. The goal is to give personality to the characters and make the player see them as not generic. We'll see how it goes.