VaM 1.x Timeline Female Hip rotates away

[Ghostwalden]

I have this phenomenon, that the hip of the female rotates away, when i change animation in Timeline.
This destroys the animation then because the position is no longer correct.
Yesterday, I fixed all the animations and it worked.
Today I opened the Scene and the problem appeared again.

I have no f*king idea, whats going on here.

Has anyone ever had this problem and knows how to fix this?

 

[Electric E-Boy]

I had the same issue before. Sadly no solution. Maybe some kind of pose or collider problem, a node trying to comply? In my case it was even funnier, because the hip sometimes even moved after several seconds. Interesting that is was also the hip for me, but may be just a coincidence.

 

[Ghostwalden]

Thanks for your reply Electric E-Boy.

Hm... really strange phenomen.

Sometimes it suddendly appears and another time I can open the scene and everything works fine again.

I'm not sure if timeline is causing this problem or if it comes from somewhere else.

Maybe someone else has an idea where the problem could be?

 

[Electric E-Boy]

Got another situation like this, even a loop this time And i found the reason, it is as i already thought, a conflict of strained nodes when you have some of them not on comply. In my case i set both elbow nodes to comply and the hip swaying stopped.

 

[Ghostwalden]

Got another situation like this, even a loop this time And i found the reason, it is as i already thought, a conflict of strained nodes when you have some of them not on comply. In my case i set both elbow nodes to comply and the hip swaying stopped.


View attachment 519293

Thank you Electric E-Boy

This is really a strange phenomen...
Why does the hip have a problem, when the elbows are not on comply?

But sure something I will try to play around with, when the problem occures next time

 

[Electric E-Boy]

I think the fixed positions of hand and elbow in that position build up too much tension for the nodes and joints below. Elbows on comply fixed that tension, but i could also just move the head a little bit higher or just reduce the strain elsewhere. You can show the joints with "debug joints under the "Control & Physics 1" tab, but it looked okay in my case.


The complex and great animation system in VaM demands its tribute i guess. I have way too many explosions, jitters and other problems, but you can't have that kind of system without these i can imagine.

 

[CV42]

I had that problem once with a hip node and solved it somehow. I'm quite sure using 'comply' wasn't it, because I basically never use that state.

I believe I set the hip node to 'locked', applied the saved pose, refreshed all targets in the targets tab in timeline and set the hip node back to 'on'.

Not entirely sure if that was the solution for that problem. Currently I don't have a scene that has that problem.

 

[Ghostwalden]

I had that problem once with a hip node and solved it somehow. I'm quite sure using 'comply' wasn't it, because I basically never use that state.

I believe I set the hip node to 'locked', applied the saved pose, refreshed all targets in the targets tab in timeline and set the hip node back to 'on'.

Not entirely sure if that was the solution for that problem. Currently I don't have a scene that has that problem.

Thanks for your reply CV42

I usually don't use comply state either...
But in exceptional cases, if it solves the problem, it is worth a try.

When I fixed the Hip node position again and applied the saved pose, it didn't occure again so far.
But I'm not so sure, if it really is fixed or if it does occure again.
I suddendly had this problem once on the male, where it never occured before, but next time i opened the scene it was gone.
So, it is really a strange pheomen.
Maybe I have to fix those problems, when the scene is finished and i don't add any animation anymore and hope that everything remains stable then.

 

[Electric E-Boy]

My english may be a problem, the comply setting was just an example of a factor, not the single solution. It is more about conflicting/rivaling forces and tension/strain/pressure ("Elbows on comply fixed that tension, but i could also just move the head a little bit higher or just reduce the strain elsewhere.").

Also if you work with preset poses or some plugins, you will change the node settings a lot without noticing it. Not saying you do, just something to be aware of.

This is still just a theory though, would be great if someone could give more insight.

 

[Ghostwalden]

My english may be a problem, the comply setting was just an example of a factor, not the single solution. It is more about conflicting/rivaling forces and tension/strain/pressure ("Elbows on comply fixed that tension, but i could also just move the head a little bit higher or just reduce the strain elsewhere.").

Also if you work with preset poses or some plugins, you will change the node settings a lot without noticing it. Not saying you do, just something to be aware of.

This is still just a theory though, would be great if someone could give more insight.

You're english ist fine
My english isn't the best either

I saw it like that too, that it could be one of many factors that can be tried to counteract the problem.
Every tip to maybe get rid of the problem is useful.
But in the end, I guess, there are too many factors to find the one single solution.
But who knows, maybe someone will find out the main cause someday

 

[Femcore]

You can try the contortionist plugin and see if it makes things better and allows you to do what you want:

Contortionist - Plugins + Scripts -

Allows control over the range of motion of joints. Use it to create poses that VAM otherwise doesn't let you do, or smooth out mocap/animations, or lock down toes for shoes. Thanks to @VamTimbo and @ascorad for the idea!

hub.virtamate.com

 

[Ghostwalden]

You can try the contortionist plugin and see if it makes things better and allows you to do what you want:

Contortionist - Plugins + Scripts -

Allows control over the range of motion of joints. Use it to create poses that VAM otherwise doesn't let you do, or smooth out mocap/animations, or lock down toes for shoes. Thanks to @VamTimbo and @ascorad for the idea!

hub.virtamate.com

Thanks Femcore

I prefer to solve the problem without additional plugins, but still something one can try

 

[Electric E-Boy]

You can try the contortionist plugin and see if it makes things better and allows you to do what you want:

Contortionist - Plugins + Scripts -

Allows control over the range of motion of joints. Use it to create poses that VAM otherwise doesn't let you do, or smooth out mocap/animations, or lock down toes for shoes. Thanks to @VamTimbo and @ascorad for the idea!

hub.virtamate.com

That actually worked too, cool I put the plugin on the atom, pressed "unconstrain shown" to get the bigger limits and the wiggling instantly stopped. I wasn't aware of the joint limits before, guess that is an important factor to know.

 

[Electric E-Boy]

After further experimentations i think i was right with my first ideas behind this problem. After changing my workflow to better manage the physical node properties (on, off, comply, etc.) i can now easily reproduce the "problem":

It is "just" the difference between a keyframed pose (probably done with different node properties) and the current node settings. So in some cases some elements relax (or act like they should) after a short time.

I would suggest using PoseConvert to control different rigs for different use cases. This plugin allows you to manage your node properties independent of the pose itself. You can also use the "Control & Physics 2" tab to get shortcuts for different node setups. In combination with different rigs like the EasyPose BioRigs and changing between them, you will have a much easier time posing your characters. Still a nightmare for me personally, but it is what it is.

I really ask myself if the established big scene creators also still struggle with posing and animating or if i am just bad at it... is there some hidden skill/knowledge you need to learn/know?

 

[Ghostwalden]

After further experimentations i think i was right with my first ideas behind this problem. After changing my workflow to better manage the physical node properties (on, off, comply, etc.) i can now easily reproduce the "problem":

View attachment 524588

It is "just" the difference between a keyframed pose (probably done with different node properties) and the current node settings. So in some cases some elements relax (or act like they should) after a short time.

Hmm... this is really strange and something I had not like this on my side.
I only have that hip slip away, but never had that whole relaxing thing.

I would suggest using PoseConvert to control different rigs for different use cases. This plugin allows you to manage your node properties independent of the pose itself. You can also use the "Control & Physics 2" tab to get shortcuts for different node setups. In combination with different rigs like the EasyPose BioRigs and changing between them, you will have a much easier time posing your characters. Still a nightmare for me personally, but it is what it is.

I will have a look at it, but actually I don't want to use an additional plugin for get rid of that problem.
As for me, I think I just have to fix the hip at the start position again and save the position again.
But I'm not sure, if it fixes it complete, or if it occures again one day when I open the Scene in the future...

I really ask myself if the established big scene creators also still struggle with posing and animating or if i am just bad at it... is there some hidden skill/knowledge you need to learn/know?

I don't think that you are bad at posing and animating...
I guess, there must be something, that is interfering timeline here...
Don't know, maybe a plugin or some settings, could be a lot of things...
I can't Imagine, that other big creators experience that problem as well.
I actually asked one a while ago, and he never experienced something like this.

 

[Electric E-Boy]

Hmm... this is really strange and something I had not like this on my side.
I only have that hip slip away, but never had that whole relaxing thing.

Hmm, okay then. I thought it is the very same thing, looks similar. Of course it is a general circumstance that can have different consequences - i had the hip doing it alone on multiple occasions. It is "just" the thing how VaM achieves its physics i would say. And you don't need plugins, these are VaM core settings, the plugins just make it easier to manage them.

I also found this thread here:

Newbie question: Erratic jiggling/spazzing when posing models

Hi, I am new to virt-a-mate. When I try to pose models, sometimes they end up erratically jiggling/spazzing out of control. I tried turning on and off collision of the model, but it didn't work. Does anyone know how to fix this? This happens often when trying to make tight poses where different...

hub.virtamate.com

It seems to be the same general topic, regarding "jiggling", and the following statement by TToby seems to describe it quite well, especially imagining a rubber leash:

"Hi, this is unfortunately a common issue. There are forces between the different body joints, like a rubber leash.
If you draw away the points too far, this may spazzing out. On the other hand, you have the collision and physics that can go mad."

If you just had that one occurence, may be it was something special. I have these problems all the time, sadly, alone today ~5 times. -.- I think it is because i don't know/understand the node interactions completely. Time to "git gud" for me Thanks for your answer.

 

[Ghostwalden]

Hmm, okay then. I thought it is the very same thing, looks similar. Of course it is a general circumstance that can have different consequences - i had the hip doing it alone on multiple occasions. It is "just" the thing how VaM achieves its physics i would say. And you don't need plugins, these are VaM core settings, the plugins just make it easier to manage them.

Yes, I also think that this is all general connected to on how VaM achieves its physics.
I just have to deal most with that hip situation, but you supposedly know this problem only too well
Plugins sure can help on some things, but as long as I can solve it somehow without them, I prefer that way.
But sure, If you cant fix it otherways and a plugin can, then sure use that Plugin.

I also found this thread here:

Newbie question: Erratic jiggling/spazzing when posing models

Hi, I am new to virt-a-mate. When I try to pose models, sometimes they end up erratically jiggling/spazzing out of control. I tried turning on and off collision of the model, but it didn't work. Does anyone know how to fix this? This happens often when trying to make tight poses where different...

hub.virtamate.com

It seems to be the same general topic, regarding "jiggling", and the following statement by TToby seems to describe it quite well, especially imagining a rubber leash:

"Hi, this is unfortunately a common issue. There are forces between the different body joints, like a rubber leash.
If you draw away the points too far, this may spazzing out. On the other hand, you have the collision and physics that can go mad."

Yes, sure a good thing to not to draw the points too far away from they're original position...
This will definitely cause fewer problems.

If you just had that one occurence, may be it was something special. I have these problems all the time, sadly, alone today ~5 times. -.- I think it is because i don't know/understand the node interactions completely. Time to "git gud" for me Thanks for your answer.

Ah... no, it's not just once, that hip thing happens alle the time.
But when I then fix the positions again, it remains more or less stalbe.

I also don't understand those physics and node interactions very deeply.
It seems to be a really complex thing.

So it is always helpful, to get some good inputs to learn a bit more about that topic.

 

[Damarmau]

Just from looking over videos and without having read all posts in detail it looks like you probably have nodes fighting each other. Either because directly connected nodes are too far apart or trying to twist away from each other in a way that fights the physics engine of the game. Individual node physics settings can play a factor too but that likely isn’t what is going on here.

If you must animate intermediary nodes (elbows/knees) you can often get away with just animating their position while leaving rotation off, this would reduce rotation conflicts in physics.

To fix this, with animation stopped, temporarily turn off these nodes and let them return to their natural positions, turn them back on and make a slight adjustment so timeline picks up the key.

While typically it is these intermediary nodes causing problems, any time a control node gets too far away from its physical node/location you can have similar problems and this applies to all nodes on the body.

In general you will want to animate as few nodes as possible to create your animation and let the physics do the rest.

 

[Ghostwalden]

Just from looking over videos and without having read all posts in detail it looks like you probably have nodes fighting each other. Either because directly connected nodes are too far apart or trying to twist away from each other in a way that fights the physics engine of the game. Individual node physics settings can play a factor too but that likely isn’t what is going on here.

If you must animate intermediary nodes (elbows/knees) you can often get away with just animating their position while leaving rotation off, this would reduce rotation conflicts in physics.

To fix this, with animation stopped, temporarily turn off these nodes and let them return to their natural positions, turn them back on and make a slight adjustment so timeline picks up the key.

While typically it is these intermediary nodes causing problems, any time a control node gets too far away from its physical node/location you can have similar problems and this applies to all nodes on the body.

In general you will want to animate as few nodes as possible to create your animation and let the physics do the rest.

Thanks for your reply Damarmau

I'm really not sure, if it is about fighting nodes in my case.
It really only affects the hip and this mostly on every animation, not just on a few, where there maybe could be a node problem.
This happens also on poses, where the nodes are not far away from each other or where there is obviously no great tension between the nodes
This problem occurs normaly only on the female.
I also often have the penomen, that the animated hip movement gets really sticky and only does mini movements allthough
the node is moving a big way. This especially happens in VR and less in Desktop mode.
But for me it looks like, there is a problem with the hip node itself.
I'm not sure, if a plugin can cause this problem. I used orifice dynamics, which adds a lot of morphs to the genital area and they
stay, even if I remove the plugin or also the shake it plugin I used, added a lot of morphs to the character.
Just a guess, but I will see, if it has something to do with it, when I don't use them in the future.

Also when I have that hip rotate away problem, the original position is still saved somehow in timeline.
I can click on apply saved pose in timeline and it loads the original pose again but the hip immediately turns away again after a second.
It's like, timeline doesn't hold that hip node correctly. Position and Rotation are mostly set to on.

When I get messy positions or if nodes really can no longer get along with each other I often turn off position and rotation of the necessary
node, then set it to on again, and realign them, as you suggested.

The other thing you said, only use the position of a node and turn off the rotation is sure something I will pay attention in the future
for taking out tension between nodes.

 

[Damarmau]

Thanks for your reply Damarmau

I'm really not sure, if it is about fighting nodes in my case.
It really only affects the hip and this mostly on every animation, not just on a few, where there maybe could be a node problem.
This happens also on poses, where the nodes are not far away from each other or where there is obviously no great tension between the nodes
This problem occurs normaly only on the female.
I also often have the penomen, that the animated hip movement gets really sticky and only does mini movements allthough
the node is moving a big way. This especially happens in VR and less in Desktop mode.
But for me it looks like, there is a problem with the hip node itself.
I'm not sure, if a plugin can cause this problem. I used orifice dynamics, which adds a lot of morphs to the genital area and they
stay, even if I remove the plugin or also the shake it plugin I used, added a lot of morphs to the character.
Just a guess, but I will see, if it has something to do with it, when I don't use them in the future.

Also when I have that hip rotate away problem, the original position is still saved somehow in timeline.
I can click on apply saved pose in timeline and it loads the original pose again but the hip immediately turns away again after a second.
It's like, timeline doesn't hold that hip node correctly. Position and Rotation are mostly set to on.

When I get messy positions or if nodes really can no longer get along with each other I often turn off position and rotation of the necessary
node, then set it to on again, and realign them, as you suggested.

The other thing you said, only use the position of a node and turn off the rotation is sure something I will pay attention in the future
for taking out tension between nodes.

There are joint offset settings in the physics settings for nodes, this would be unlikely to be the issue but possibly worth looking at. Also check that there aren’t any forces in the scene targeting the hip (turn on hidden atoms).

If you want to send me the json on discord I can take a look at the scene as that is usually the fastest way to find the issue.