VAM 2.0

I have no idea how game development works, so? Am I not allowed to have an oponion on atomic bombs until I know how to build one?

Whats your point?

Nice entrance btw. Welcome on board!
 
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Considering that there are currently issues of THIS nature in the first VAM, I think it's worth forgetting about the second part... Instead of completing the first part, let's create a new one... It's frustrating how with good ideas and enthusiasm, I have to burn out because of such thing...:(:(:(:(:(:(
 
Considering that there are currently issues of THIS nature in the first VAM, I think it's worth forgetting about the second part... Instead of completing the first part, let's create a new one... It's frustrating how with good ideas and enthusiasm, I have to burn out because of such thing...:(:(:(:(:(:(

RIP headphone users (me)
 
There is a pretty simple explanation if you all are willing to accept it. And if you can't, there probably isn't any way to convince you other than for me to actually release something, which is exactly what I'm trying to do.

Summary:
This shit is hard and it takes years to develop an application like this. If this were easy, there would be more competitors.

Longer explanation:

I was developing VaM1 for several years before I even showed it to the public in any form. VaM2 required something similar. At first I thought I could reuse a lot of code and work from VaM1 so the transition to VaM2 would be shorter, but I'm essentially rewriting everything from scratch. After digging further into VaM2 it was obvious that I had to lay completely new groundwork to meet all the goals I had set out for performance and improvements in rendering and physics. For VaM2 we are now somewhere in the middle of those 3 years of development it took before presenting VaM1 to the public. I won't say where we are because it is too hard to predict exactly. I know it has already been more than 3 years since the first mention of VaM2, but along the way VaM1 was also still being worked on, including the Hub, which was a huge amount of work to pull off and maintain. A sizeable % of the Patreon earnings go into running the Hub ad free. I also took VaM1 off the shelf to help with the retail launch and help ease the large time gap between VaM1 and VaM2. So VaM1 got some much needed love to improve usability to help extend its lifetime. Another thing to consider is during the earlier VaM1 days I was also working 80 hour weeks and it was costing me a great deal in the rest of my life. I'm no longer willing to do that as it isn't sustainable. I would rather it take longer than burn out or worse.

Like many of you, I don't like how long it is taking to complete VaM2, but I'm doing the best I can with the resources I have. Thank you to those that have been supportive and understanding. If this were easy, there would be more competitors. I have seen competitors come and go. Many of those projects that looked promising as a competitor (that I even supported!!) have kind of dropped off the map. My guess is because this is not an easy thing to create and they got stuck and lost hope. There are challenges every day that often require custom workarounds, clever solutions, or compromises. The work can be frustrating and sometime solutions to problems take weeks or months to work out. But with the proper drive and persistence, it is possible to bring a project like this to completion.

I'm loving working on VaM2 nearly every day. I'm very excited about the possibilities and improving the parts of VaM1 that I was not as proud of (mostly usability and performance). I want to keep enjoying making it and make a quality product that improves upon every aspect of VaM1. If I love what I'm doing, it will show in the end result. That is how VaM1 came to be, and I believe it is the correct path for VaM2 as well.

In my opinion, you did something above and beyond when making Vam 1.X. VAM is so realistic and technically advanced that makes every single erotic VR product I have seen so far, look like a cheap joke. I even use VAM to set up my guided meditation session scenes and it works better than those paid apps in the Quest store! I assure your real fans will be patient while you do your development.
 
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In my opinion, you did something above and beyond when making Vam 1.X. VAM is so realistic and technically advanced that makes every single erotic VR product I have seen so far look like a joke. I even use VAM to set up my guided meditation session scenes and it works better than those paid apps in the Quest store! I assure you real fans will be patient while you do your development.
Maybe you should consider (that) even real fans are not eternal
[end of macabre kidding]

Being patient is rational, wise and peaceful: but what we care the most (about our beloved vam gaming) is the pure extatic fun it can give. On this important context (of distilled feelings) any honest polemic talk can merit the same value as flattering... just widely merited flatteries of course.
 
In my opinion, you did something above and beyond when making Vam 1.X. VAM is so realistic and technically advanced that makes every single erotic VR product I have seen so far, look like a cheap joke. I even use VAM to set up my guided meditation session scenes and it works better than those paid apps in the Quest store! I assure your real fans will be patient while you do your development.
Can you share such a scene? I am really curious. I tried setting up a meditation scene myself.
 
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Considering that there are currently issues of THIS nature in the first VAM, I think it's worth forgetting about the second part... Instead of completing the first part, let's create a new one... It's frustrating how with good ideas and enthusiasm, I have to burn out because of such thing...:(:(:(:(:(:(

Not to say that there's no validity to the questionability of "if VAM 2.0 will deliver on its promises, and if it'll be delivered at all", but you need to consider the perspective that VAM 1.x was the first iteration of this project. It's essentially experimental, in the sense that this was their first attempt without the prior knowledge of what could go wrong and how it could be avoided.

VAM 2.0 seems to be built from the ground up with the idea to prevent the issues that popped up in 1.x. For the physics issues that are present in 1.x, it might take a huge reworking of some core fundamental physics-handling systems. At that point, wouldn't you prefer a fresh new product that comes with this stuff fixed out-of-the-box? Or would you prefer for them to dig deep into an already complex (and dated) system that would maybe take them the same amount of time as making a 2.0 while also potentially breaking a lot of things already developed for 1.x?

1.x delivers a WHOLE lot for a customizable sex game experience, way more than anything else out there, with full softbody collision and a huge resource database of readymade scenes and plugins that expand on the base game. The fact that something like this already exists is quite a feat. Now that the developers know what issues 1.x has, rather than tinkering with it and potentially making things worse while also being limited to 1.x's capabilities, they are working on a far more versatile and stable 2.0 version. Think of 2.0 as the fixes that 1.x needs.

Also need to limit your expectations as to what's possible in a video game in terms of physics systems. Unity 3D is not some advanced, super-efficient physics engine, so something as complex as VaM is likely to "explode" if users try to push it too hard. Any game engine out there will likely have the same issues, so I wouldn't expect 1.x, 2.0, or any other sex game out there to come out within the next 10 years at least, to be able to deal any of these issues with absolute grace and perfection. Your hyper-realistic video games are still just using cubes and cylinders for full-body collision, and they'll carry on doing that until some breakthrough in hardware is reached. VaM is already trying to go beyond that for a consumer-level video game, and hopefully 2.0 will handle things better, but we're still a ways away from never having to worry about these physics explosions ever happening again, no matter how well made 2.0 will be.
 
Can you share such a scene? I am really curious. I tried setting up a meditation scene myself.
Nothing really fancy. I use nature scenes inside the VAM and then add my Mindful Meditation Audio files to the Scene audio. I also add other audio like birds singing or rain and cricket sounds to it. I cannot share the scene as meditation audio files could be subject to copyright. But setting this up for personal use is fast and extremely easy.

Example is :
1700767775289.png



1700768202605.png


And I use this too:
1700768847951.png
 
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This is quite the thread and discussion and I’d love to add my not-so-short two cents to it.

Before I do, please know that my background is 20 years of experience in film and video production, as well as photography. Therefore, I am fully acquainted with the principle of either doing things for free or being criminally underpaid for my hard-earned skills. Also, for two years prior to COVID, I was the official volunteer photographer for one of the biggest angel investment groups in Canada and covered their many monthly activities, which mainly consisted of pitch contests. Needless to say, throughout my career so far I’ve met with a great many entrepreneurs and investors and heard countless stories of successes and failures. The one thing they all have in common though is whether the entrepreneur managed to properly scale up or not.

If one wants to build a lemonade stand and leave it at that, that’s no problem at all, but if growth is part of the plan, then one needs a business plan that includes contingencies for growth, rapid or normal. One of the best examples of efficient scaling comes from Michael Dell. He started his business in his dorm room and a few years later he was helming a much bigger company, and the rest is history. Now, I don’t know the details beyond what Chat-GPT told me but one thing is certain, Dell either continued to build computers himself, and hired a business manager to handle the business side of his company, or he became the manager himself, and hired more hands to build the computers.

I’m glad that MVR chimed in earlier in this thread, and I fully respect his dedication, struggles, and desire to continue working on V2 himself, but this comes at the expense of the business side of Vam.

I discovered Vam back in May and became a creator-level supporter at the end of June. Since then, I’ve lurked here, intensely, and watched the growth, joys, and frustrations of creators. Although the Vam ecosystem is quite alive, it is also one gigantic mess.

From a purely consumer perspective things are not so bad. If I want to play a scene made by WeebUVR, for instance, I can simply download it and chances are it will work as intended right out of the box. Still, though, a dependency might need updating, and the experience will be messed up until it is. The potential for heavy friction is always high.

From the creative side, that’s where it goes south. I bought the creator-level for a reason. I believe Vam is the future, and I want to participate in with my own creations. Since June, I’ve been digging into scenes and learning the intricacies of plugin relationships, textures, assets, and more. As of today though, I still don’t know where to start and what to create. The reasons for this are manyfold:

  • The vast number of plugins available, some of which do the same as others.
  • The labyrinth that is the CC license system. Resources use one license type, while its dependencies use others, and dependencies have their own dependencies with their own license preference, and so forth
  • The rapidly evolving nature of Vam. There’s something new or improved upon every single week. Sometimes it’s even bigger and steps into “game-changing” territory (looking at you Voxta ;))

It seems to me that the common thread amongst plugin creators is they hope their work will be used by creators to create something as new and exciting as it is unexpected. That’s all good, and if you are a creator that’s been here since the beginning you are at a clear advantage since all you need to be is keeping yourself abreast of anything new.

But if you happen to be someone new to Vam, then you are facing countless hours of trial and error when attempting to learn about resources, while always keeping in mind the CC system. Then one day, it all comes crashing down because someone releases a game-changer of a plugin. Massive FOMO can easily set in and may bring you back to square one all over again. Meanwhile, you still haven’t created anything.

Needless to say, the barrier to entry for new creators is stunningly high, and can only lead to hitting a ceiling down the road, where stagnation will occur.

***

Another aspect of the ecosystem that hinders the healthy growth of Vam is the dynamic of Patreon/Discord used by a great many creators. I specifically prefaced this post for a good reason, which is applicable here. If you are a creator who wishes to be compensated for your efforts, that’s entirely reasonable, and that’s the long-term direction I wish to take as well. That being said, how many Patreon does a Vam creator need to support in order to have most of the tools needed for an efficient workflow that will let them create up-to-date and competitive products?

Compensation is indeed essential and is the best incentive there is, but it can surely be done using a means that streamlines the Vam ecosystem while reducing the barrier to entry at the same time.

Within the realm of adult gaming, I’ve joined and left my share of Discord servers over the years and they all seem to play out the same way; a handful of members will dwell in it, and most of the content is chit-chat, humor, gifs posting, etc. All in all, a massive source of distraction, and while the creator is busy defending the slightest nitpick, answering pointless questions, or repeating the same answer to the same question over and over again, they’re not creating. On top of that, if one manages to get an answer on the server, this means the community at large here does not benefit from it.

MVR cannot do everything, and if Vam’s ecosystem is to be improved, we must join him in his efforts. Frankly, what MVR et al. did with this forum is pretty damn good, so why not use it?

So I’m asking you, creators, imagine if you were compensated and you didn’t have to deal with Patreon and Discord management? How much of an improvement would that be on your creative process and output?

Lastly, questions raised by other posters like: “Will V2 break the plugins?”, “Will it be backward compatible”, “and if that is the case, “Will there be a fragmenting of the user base between versions?”etc., are perfectly valid, and need to be addressed as soon as possible, because they just add to the barrier of entry.

*****

As far as I am concerned, Vam is the most exciting thing around, and I would like nothing more than to see it grow into a healthy and strong adult, so to speak.

I have practical ideas and I wish to get involved. With more heads than one, these ideas may be improved upon, or perhaps even better, be replaced by better ones. If you feel the same, by all means, my DM is open and let’s start a discussion, formulate a plan, and support MVR/Vam with a hands-on approach that will contribute to the health of this ecosystem and guarantees all of us for years, if not decades, of awesomeness.

GS.
 
Sadly, VAM will probably be completely outpaced by newer faster teams, especially as AI improves work productivity. The current work efficiency of Mesh is extraordinarily low because of a straight refusal to hire additional talent that could easily see the project cut its development time by literal years after factoring any bringing them up to speed.

In truth, we all know the main focus is to milk it as much as humanly possible, not that anyone could really blame him. This also aligns with the refusal to migrate to better tools when Unity is showing strong decline because it is easier to stick with what Mesh knows, especially with more recent drama showing Unity is outright unwilling to keep current with technology like DirectStorage, superior Unreal Engine offerings, etc. Probably worst is how limiting Daz is and the current scope of the project not to mention the dependence on others to add stuff and fix stuff in the final product that should readily be included/fixed by the developer themselves just like with 1.x.

The reality is bleak, but it all comes back to money, learning curve, and work life balance to which I can't entirely blame the creator for this choice. This is the simplest and most profitable path while retaining their sanity wheres doing a more efficient job could work out but also might not be nearly as profitable if unstable results as milking it.
Unreal is far more suited to this sort of immersive 3d model based app than unity. Unreal 5 is getting towards photo realism at this point. It's scalable nanite system is perfect for this sort of app where your viewpoint to assets will vary from distant to very close (if you know what I mean). Plus unreal 5 has a wonderful creators interface and is heavily used by much of the gaming industry meaning that assets, skilled users and general eco system are far better than unity. However it may be that sticking with unity allows for vam1 assets and addons to be used with vam2, it's about the only reason for retaining unity.
 
Unreal is far more suited to this sort of immersive 3d model based app than unity. Unreal 5 is getting towards photo realism at this point. It's scalable nanite system is perfect for this sort of app where your viewpoint to assets will vary from distant to very close (if you know what I mean). Plus unreal 5 has a wonderful creators interface and is heavily used by much of the gaming industry meaning that assets, skilled users and general eco system are far better than unity. However it may be that sticking with unity allows for vam1 assets and addons to be used with vam2, it's about the only reason for retaining unity.
On Discord, Meshed has said:

"I have 5-6 years experience in Unity and only a few months with Unreal. Unity is more easily extensible in my opinion, although Unreal is maybe better about that these days. I can easily make my own physics engine in Unity, but that would be very difficult to do in Unreal. A custom physics engine is required for what I want to do with skin physics."

he has also estimated that making the jump to Unreal would set the project back 2-3 years, as he'd have to start everything from scratch. I don't think anyone wants that!
 
I wish 2.0 adds local coop, it would be amazing with the Quest 3 and mixed reality features.
 
I can put assets/atoms and change looks but for many years still think animation is hard to learn. I hope VAM2 will simplify that process. Also, will VAM2 be on UE5? we need to be able to add multiple looks in one scene without FPS dragging us down.
 
I can put assets/atoms and change looks but for many years still think animation is hard to learn. I hope VAM2 will simplify that process. Also, will VAM2 be on UE5? we need to be able to add multiple looks in one scene without FPS dragging us down.
Not UE5 no, VAM 2.x will be on a modern version of Unity. Not as advanced as UE5, but compared to the current version of Unity it runs on, might as well say it's a completely different world. It will be significantly more advanced, nonetheless.
 
Not UE5 no, VAM 2.x will be on a modern version of Unity. Not as advanced as UE5, but compared to the current version of Unity it runs on, might as well say it's a completely different world. It will be significantly more advanced, nonetheless.
Unity is the worst language for writing games. And for this kind of games even more so. It's very sad.
 
Unity is the worst language for writing games. And for this kind of games even more so. It's very sad.

Keep in mind that VAM is not a FPS shooter with tons of characters running around, on MP and bullet physics filling up the CPU. I am pretty sure that Unity can handle VERY well the FPS of few characters having sex ...
 
I have just 1 request for V2 - please do not remove compatibility with v1 assets, this will greatest bummer.
Or at least then make some way to convert\or some bridge etc.
 
Keep in mind that VAM is not a FPS shooter with tons of characters running around, on MP and bullet physics filling up the CPU. I am pretty sure that Unity can handle VERY well the FPS of few characters having sex ...
Run VAM and see how Unity handles FPS )))) my 3060ti "takes off" sometimes from a measly TWO characters...
 
Run VAM and see how Unity handles FPS )))) my 3060ti "takes off" sometimes from a measly TWO characters...

It does not mean that Unity is the problem. VAM is quite a huge piece of software sitting on Unity. It could require some serious rearchitecting.
 
I'll put my two cents in, with VAM 1.0, i can pretty much create a 95% realistic looking scene with the right lighting, home grown textures, my own assets that i spend hours upon hours on, to get a almost real look. If we are to expect more from VAM 2.0, which i would expect to be the case, it will be nothing short of freaking incredible. I'm good with waiting for the release, a new beta would be really nice if that were possible, just to get our taste buds salivating. Just tryna save up enough for whatever the latest graphic card will be by then, so i'll be able to enjoy it. Yeah, it's taken forever, but Rome wasn't built in a day.
 
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