What does the VAM/VAMX on Steam release mean for this community?

VAMIC

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@meshedvr and @vamX First, congratulations on getting an app together for the Steam store. You've both made an amazing product and I'm glad you'll be able to get another place to display it. While I'm excited that a user friendly version of VAM will be accessible to a broader audience, I have a number of questions about this public release.

First, how will this Steam version interface with the Hub? Based on what I saw at the official link (https://sxvr.com/), this version of VAM will be supported by the Hub. This means users around the world who found VAM too difficult to access or interact with will be trying VAM for the first time. With that inflation in users will come increased scrutiny to whatever is going on here. Will this mean the end of branded character interpretations and lookalikes? It's pretty hard to imagine Steam tolerating either, much less the people whose attention it draws. If hundreds of thousands (or millions) of noobs are coming to this hub and able to see what VAM is and does, then it may come with more journalistic or regulatory attention. I know VAM has already dealt with some of this and the Hub is of course a public website, but still, it seems like it will prompt a significant increase of scrutiny. It also could potentially increase the likelihood of people adding malicious code to plugins. Will they have a separate hub that only contains VAMX looks and assets or be using the same Hub? Based on the release info, it looks like they'll be headed here.

Second, there's mention in the announcement of creators receiving compensation for their works being incorporated into this new release. How will that work?

Third, what does this mean for VAM 2.0? Will this be like GTA 5 where the developer makes a truckload and just never does a sequel or will revenues help fast track VAM 2.0? Will there also be a Steam release of 2.0 when it drops?

Fourth, VAM's architecture also has potential for other types of creative activities and so the spread of base VAM means we could see a massive influx of more scenes, assets, clothing and appearances, especially from people who now know there's a larger audience for their stuff. In light of that, how will you prevent the Hub from becoming a Patreon farm? It already kind of is, but there's enough pre-existing free content to offset all the paid content.

Fifth, with VAMX frontloaded, people will be able to easily use VAM. This is definitely the smartest way to do it, but will the Steam release also include extensive documentation on how to use underlying VAM so people can continue to be inspired to try making things? Or will people just be directed the Wiki here, the various Reddit threads and some of the old YouTube videos?

Sixth, Steam has historically been very strict about there needing to be game-like elements in an app in order to keep it in the store. VAMX kind of helps with this because of its interactivity, but has Steam indicated that will be sufficient? Will there be additional gamelike elements to satisfy this requirement?

Finally, the new MetaChat plugin means there will likely be a flood of people who can easily access this app for sex work. As it stands right now, it has more of a sex club vibe, but with that many users, it's highly likely we'll see a change in who is using it for what. Honestly, as I've said elsewhere, it's definitely less degrading and overall safer to be getting paid to moan on a voice chat while someone e-bangs a lookalike avatar of you than it is to meet up IRL in a squalid hotel room, so in many ways this is a net positive, but I'm not sure reactionary policymakers will see it that way.

Of course, all of this could be much ado about nothing and there may not be an appreciable bump in users or attention since people still need a good PC, time to learn and a VR Headset if they want the full experience, but I'm assuming the strategy behind this is to scale the app. With scale comes other problems, of course, so I'm hopeful that it's not too much of a pain and that it doesn't irrevocably alter the community. I wish your teams luck and would appreciate any clarity you can give.
 
Thanks for all of your thoughts. People will arrive to the hub as usual. I can't really speak to how the hub will be impacted. The hub has a copyright policy https://hub.virtamate.com/help/copyright-policy and DMCA notices as usual. If the steam version sells very well, I plan on setting aside some money to either support free new content to be designed (CC BY free for everyone to use), or offer standard license fees (similar to what I've paid creators in the past to create custom content, or the typical fees for licensing similar works from the Unity Asset Store, etc.) to people who's free works were used in vamX. I'm hoping that my work with vamX and the expanding Virt-A-Mate user base, provides additional income for creators who try to earn money from Virt-a-Mate. I believe that vamX has already expanded the Virt-a-Mate user base by helping people get past a possible initial frustrating period of getting to know Virt-a-Mate. vamX has always tried to deliver as much credit as possible in-game to show users who made what, and emphasize that you can go look for more content by that creator. What I wrote in the announcement is about an opportunity for paid creators to sell additional content as DLC through Steam, so if you're a creator with content in vamX, and you have lots of additional copyright cleared materials, perhaps there are DLC pack opportunities in the future. Steam approved the build as is, and spent a while approving it, so I'm not concerned about having to change it to satisfy steam. I think the hub clearly sorts free and paid content, so I don't see how more paid content would ruin the hub. The default view of content is only free content anyway. There is plenty that can be done to regulate paid content in any case, and if needed, further steps will be taken (if deemed required by MeshedVR + team). I can't really comment on future developments, mostly because it's too much work already just figuring out how to release and promote this development.
 
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Point 1: The Steam version of VaM is nearly identical. Steam does unfortunately have requirements about in-app purchases and promotion of paid content. So to get this on Steam we had to make a special Steam version which removes the Pay Type drop down in the Hub browser so only Free content can be shown. In addition, all promotional links to Patreon or other pay sites had to be removed. Other than that, the Steam version of VaM can still interface with the Hub. As for content, the Hub already has fairly strict policies: https://hub.virtamate.com/help/terms/ What I expect it will mean to have the Steam version connected to the Hub is more moderation.

Point 2: Answered by vamX

Point 3: This is really vamX's product. The VaM team is not planning further changes to the VaM 1.X core other than what we have already done to get the Steam release complete. I will really only consider working on 1.X if it is critical to keeping this product on the store. The VaM team will be 99% focused on 2.X going forward. vamX will continue to improve the combined 1.X product. I will likely pursue getting 2.X on Steam when the time is right, meaning when it is a complete product. In the meantime I expect to continue to have my Patreon project be all about 2.X and releasing early access 2.X builds to backers.

Point 4: The Hub is already well separated for free and paid. The default is to only see Free content. I don't really see having more resources in the Paid section as a problem. We have introduced limits to the number of resources posted per week to prevent spamming, and we can always make other changes to keep the Paid section more in order.

Point 5: vamX has done a great job with in-game tutorials for vamX itself. The base VaM documentation and tutorials will continue to be covered as they are now, with guides here on the Hub and the Wiki. The Wiki can continue to be improved as needed, but as mentioned earlier the VaM team's primary focus at this point is 2.X.

Point 6: Steam approved after we made some changes, mostly around paid content linking. It is clear they looked the application in a complete manner as the feedback was very specific and covered sections deep withing the application. They know what they approved.

VaM has already faced some scrutiny from the press in the past. That is just part of having a software system that is an open adult-oriented sandbox. That isn't a reason for us to shy away from bigger potential markets like Steam.
 
I forgot another point I wanted to make. We are prepared if we have to pull the Hub out of the Steam version of the program for any reason. I have added a new system in the upcoming 1.20.77.11 release that will be available to everyone called the Package Downloader. It allows pasting in a resource link or var package name and that system will scan the Hub to find it and all the dependencies and allow downloading in-game. This would allow a Hub-disabled version of VaM to still support addon content by having users externally browse the Hub, and then just copy/paste in a link into the game to install the content. Here is a screenshot of what that looks like:

1668611292775.png
 
Thanks for the answers from both of you. This is very clarifying. So most things will remain status quo but VAMX will just have a kind of simpler interface for Steam users and Valve, I suppose, will treat the Hub as a kind of modder community if I'm understanding correctly?

One point of clarification, which I guess is for @vamX is do you intend to also include a discussion section and the other customary support options that Steam games use or will all inquiries for more info direct to your own documentation kept off the steam store elsewhere? I noted on Patreon you said you'd still be providing info there for subscribers and I guess we get updates sooner, but I'm just wondering about how you'll accommodate the typical engagement expectations of a Steam user.

Good luck to you both!
 
It's great thank VAM is going to be available to a wider audience.

I would say that although VAMx has
I forgot another point I wanted to make. We are prepared if we have to pull the Hub out of the Steam version of the program for any reason. I have added a new system in the upcoming 1.20.77.11 release that will be available to everyone called the Package Downloader. It allows pasting in a resource link or var package name and that system will scan the Hub to find it and all the dependencies and allow downloading in-game. This would allow a Hub-disabled version of VaM to still support addon content by having users externally browse the Hub, and then just copy/paste in a link into the game to install the content. Here is a screenshot of what that looks like:

View attachment 176866
Don't suppose you could sneak an Undo feature into this build as well... or a couple of interface tweaks? :)
 
Undo requires a complete revamp of how VaM works, so not going to happen until 2.X. I can't spend more time on 1.X as my team's focus is now 99% on 2.X. :)
 
Not even to fix the out of memory issue when saving? If you consider it I can send you a diff on the JSON classes next week, that would make saving large scenes much safer :D (It's mostly about using a StringBuilder in a few places instead of string concatenation)
 
If 1.X ever gets an update/hotfix/revisit of any kind (wishful thinking). :)

-any chance to var package all loose files in vanilla client (primarily hairstyles & plugins, person textures is fine as loose)?
example:
package1 ...\Hair\Female\MeshedVR\Samples
package2 ...\Hair\Female\VaMDeV\VaMHairstyles
package3 ...\Hair\Male\Jackaroo (julian & lee)
package4 ...\Hair\Female\RenVR\RenVR (lexi & simone)
...or single hairstyle package
package5 ...\Scripts\MeshedVR

Ren hairstyles are redistributed (duplicates) way too many times. :LOL:

-nitpicking: if possible remove local ...\Assets\MeshedVR (sedan) from sync/repair, already inside MeshedVR.AssetsPack.1
-bonus: maybe add https://hub.virtamate.com/resources/isloverlook-extras.13309/ to VaM as vanilla content/official

By all means focus on 2.X, no need for new 1.X features (bugfixes are welcome).
But if opportunity presents itself? Packaging loose stuff should be a good thing IMO (and not requiring crazy amount of dev time).
 
Undo requires a complete revamp of how VaM works, so not going to happen until 2.X. I can't spend more time on 1.X as my team's focus is now 99% on 2.X. :)

I know it's a big ask, but VAM 1x could really use some Meshed love. Let's face it, even if 2.0 gets released early next year (unlikely?) it's going to be probably another year at least before it's get out of Beta and then the community builds on it. So maybe 2 years before it's up to speed??

The community has worked so hard to bring VAM 1x to the point where it continues to be a great tool (where would it be without Timeline, for example??). Maybe a top 10 of most requested (do-oable) features into a last patch?? Go on.... you know you want to ;-).
 
You see. Everyone has a 1.X request. I really can't take it on right now or it will materially impact the 2.X schedule. I would rather have 2.X sooner than 1.X taken off the shelf. Yes I made a special exception here for Steam approval process. We had not planned to change 1.X at all for this endevour, but Steam requirements forced our hand.
 
You see. Everyone has a 1.X request. I really can't take it on right now or it will materially impact the 2.X schedule. I would rather have 2.X sooner than 1.X taken off the shelf. Yes I made a special exception here for Steam approval process. We had not planned to change 1.X at all for this endevour, but Steam requirements forced our hand.
Ok fair enough :).
 
I can't wait to get it! I'm excited to have it officially on my steam library! I think this is going to bring way more awareness, especially with all the great reviews that are going to come. This would be the official sex game simulator.
 
Some people will be highly pissed seeing VAM on Steam that where rejected with their "Realism" projects

especially seeing VAM allowed outside of Japan if that happens it surely will bring a lot of discussions on to Steam

but overall it is a good thing we need another out rage and a little drama i wonder if Valve is aware what for a Snowball they could bring to run into another Avalanche :)

No other product is so controversial perceptional as a tool when it comes to external content distribution, sometimes Valve surprises me and some of the Reviewers green lighting things.

I wonder if they will regret this if things go massively chaotic and a wave of controversial press hits them, re questioning a lot of their previous decisions and denys of much higher controllable things up to Person IDS with a Adult Content Focus.


And VAMs internal avoidance systems for controversial content are still in such a early research state and not part of it's core yet

and we all the time see questionable content even slip through moderation, neither makes it better that one of the most controversial artists is part of the VAMX package

And with all this Asian directions we have opened the gate to hell, way to early.

We are even in a much shiftier position overall than DAZ was back then coming under fire mostly for non animated content with Gen2
which made them fast to evolve and get rid of it silently as possible

All these "semi efficient clones" though will also bring it's copyright holders massively into play when on Steam

C&D Hell will brake lose upon a lot of Cloners

People like Sirap,Podflower,Vecterror they will all come under massive fire no Disclaimer is gonna protect them

*Loosely based * will not hold up in court Podflower

Hope you where so clever putting yourself some of your Patreon Earnings to the side

Wow in the End Greed will Destroy VAM

@vamX

You are geesp0t right ?
 
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@Kosmosx That is quite the take. The Hub is already heavily moderated. If you don't agree with our moderation that is just your specific opinion and may not hold to what the majority deems acceptable or unacceptable. We use a team of moderators to make sure we make good decisions on what content remains and what does not. We have very clear terms and DMCA on this site. If you see content breaking these terms, that is what the report button is for. Speaking of terms-of-use, you have been warned multiple times for your previous comments and/or reviews, and are nearing your own ban. I suggest you keep things civil.

If the Steam release is successful, it will bring more users here and more attention to VaM. If that attention requires more moderation, that is what will happen. Valve is aware of this product supporting community content. A lot of the fixes we had to make to get approval revolved around that aspect. They made it clear we are responsible for moderation of community content on the Hub.
 
I too fear this will destroy VAM, or at least the VAM I used to know. To put it bluntly, the reason I use VAM is so I can virtually pork celebrities and fictional characters I like. I fear the "mainstreamization" of VAM will bring in all the normies, the journos, the scrutiny, and in a few months and years all the cool things we used to be able to do here will be gone. VAM will be a bunch of boomer soccer moms watching VR dance videos, because everything spicier will be banned. First it will be the copyright violations (byebye fictional characters and celebs), and eventually perhaps everything "indecent" in general (this will happen because you're having to conform to Steam's standards now, not just your own).

Kosmosx's concerns seem valid. Threatening him with a ban because you don't like the content of what he's saying doesn't make you look good, neither is it very productive...
 
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I think that there isn't any way to stop the expansion of Virt-a-Mate. Of course the Steam release will bring more users, but already, this isn't hidden from main-stream media, and is available as a public website where anyone can view any creator's work posted here at any time.

I'm not sure that taking a stance that the Hub should allow for copyright violations is a productive line of discussion.
 
I also don't think this will hurt vam at all. The Sims is a huge main stream title that also uses lookalikes, but with their actual names, that are also sometimes used in wicked whims.

And as for my creations, my focus as been adult entertainer lookalikes thus far. I really don't see a lookalike of a porn star effecting someone who has sex on camera for a living. Actually, they might even think it's cool. I also have to say that there's somewhat of a symbiotic relationship between a sex simulator and creating adult entertainers. It's almost natural that someone with this skillset will create/share/sell lookalikes of adult entertainers on a sex simulation engine. They go hand to hand.

Now as for adapting and change. If meshedvr says we can't post looks anymore because of steam, then we'll focus on creating something else for vam. Creating looks for me is just where the wind blew. It's not something I like doing, it's just something that I ended up doing. Once I create and post the requested models, I never look at them again.

Anyway, Vam will be fine. Stop worrying. Vam is the future. MeshedVR has everything under control lol

Until he says otherwise, I will continue creating models.

Congrats on steam!
 
I think that's a good point SPQR. I only found the YouTube video but I'm thinking it might be good (opinions anyone?) to report this sort of content as offensive? If you check the rest of the top posts on YouTube they are mostly tutorials / what seem to me to be appropriate to post on YouTube at this time. If I was making the laws I'd have it be so that you could create whatever you wanted in your own home on your own computer for yourself, but posting an animation of a celebrity with a dildo in her mouth isn't what I would want shown on YouTube for sure.
 
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Kosmosx's concerns seem valid. Threatening him with a ban because you don't like the content of what he's saying doesn't make you look good, neither is it very productive...

It was hard to understand Kosmosx's post, and at first read it seemed racist, but I decided after several rereads it probably was not intended that way. We do our best to be fair moderators, but it isn't always easy. Kosmosx has posted a lot of things in the past that had to be removed and has been given many warnings, and is really on the last warning before a ban. The post also seemed hostile, so I thought it best to remind Kosmosx of this to actually prevent us from having to issue a ban. We welcome real discussions as long as they are civil and don't violate any of the other terms and rules.
 
I'm still kind of pissed about the Vice article. They actually interviewed me before posting it! They approached me saying they wanted to publish something that seemed like a positive exposure. They asked a lot of questions that were not about what they ended up ultimately posting. Anything for a click. That journalist got an earful from me after they published. Of course I never got a response. I now refuse all interviews. Mainstream media only cares about clicks and ads. Yes there is a chance more bad press could come. That Vice article is from 2019, and you know what happened? More people came to VaM immediately following the article. Those video links are also over a year old, and this is the first I have heard of it. No reports or complaints directed at VaM. I realize it is all about views. More views might lead to a viral situation. It is possible that success on Steam could bring a lot more views and exposure. As vamX said, this was inevitable. If 2.X goes according to plan, it is going to be even more realistic and allow even more things and is going to be easier to use so more likely to be a mainstream application. VaM 1.X was still growing as well as can be witnessed by the growth on the Hub. It is accelerating, not slowing down. I think that is due to the still increasing VR user base.

If we need to do more moderation on the Hub, that is what will happen. Is this going to kill VaM and the community? No.

Just a refresher on some of the Hub terms as well:
7.5 (d) you have a signed written consent or release for each identifiable person in the User Contribution to use their name or likeness to allow inclusion and use of the User Contribution in the way contemplated by the Website and this agreement;

9.7 Violate the legal rights (including the rights of publicity and privacy) of any person or contain any material that could give rise to any civil or criminal liability under governing laws or otherwise may be in conflict with this agreement or the Privacy Policy.

Ultimately the poster of the content is liable, not the Hub site or the underlying company of the Hub. The Hub is an aggregator, similar to YouTube or other platforms that allow community content. We will remove content based on DMCA or other legal filings as needed. We also over moderate the Hub already to keep things healthy for the community. We legally could do a lot less moderation but we choose to keep the Hub more centered in what is acceptable in the mainstream.
 
With reference to what some folks have said, I think the initial perception of VaM from casual users visiting the Hub will be a negative one. Or at least it will be perceived as quite a seedy endeavour which panders to people who like watching Thunderbird porn. Any journalists taking a look will certainly have a negative sentiment.

There is some amazing content being produced with VaM but right now you have to be very patient to discover it. The UI is a challenge and the learning curve is quite steep. VamX is (in my opinion) a low-bar in terms of content and usability. We all know it's capable of much more than that.

I think a perception shift is required. The work of Riddler, AcidBubbles, hazmhox, XSpada, VL13, Roac, klphgz (to mention but a few) should be front and center of the HUB website to demonstrate not only the awesome tech but also just how good the models can look when time and talent is applied. That it's worth spending time with this software because you can create awesome stuff.

That would serve as a much better incentive for new users coming from Steam. It's a revolutionary tech in many ways - it should be promoted as such.
 
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