What does the VAM/VAMX on Steam release mean for this community?

That's an interesting point on how some negative press sometimes brings more users. I see on the post that we're speaking of has gotten people to ask much about the game in the comment section on the following link (Controversial link).

As for worrying about the community, again, you shouldn't. Like meshedVR said, this engine is an aggregator. The issues fall back on the content creator. I've seen and reported lots pedo content on (www.pixiv.net) that I've noticed from user that come from other countries that seem to allow that sort of content. When I had the issue I reported the content creator on pixiv. Naturally I did not go and report vam as they are not the CREATOR of that content. I believe it's natural for people to understand that vam is not responsible for what people create. And vam is surely not responsible for content that is not on this platform (ticktack, youtube etc.). You have to report on those platforms and they ban the content over there. If the content shows up here, then you report it here.

Which brings me to a question. If a content creator makes a look a like on sims, but another content creator who is a video maker makes a crazy video of the look alike being shot. Who do report? Who does the responsibility fall on? Is it the look creator, or is it the video editor and animator? Who is at fault? What do you think?
 
after a long accurate analysis concerning steamed-VamX:

ClipboardX.jpg
 
my point is not about what is morally acceptable or who is gonna get in trouble where

I just think that vam lacks the content/gameplay to defend itself against a massive shitstorm. there's already screenshots with questionable-age characters posted, that took long lol

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also leaning into it like this might not help
An infinite sexual sandbox.
 
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If we have to blaze some trails and hit some bumps, so be it. The main argument in this thread seems to come down keeping VaM an inside secret to prevent its ruin.

First rule of Virt-a-Mate: There is no Virt-a-Mate

Just to give some context to this so far. The number of sold copies on Steam so far is way less than 1% of total users of VaM lifetime. Any content you seeing posted is probably from users who already had VaM. We constantly remove unacceptable content. There are many hundreds of thousands (yes you read that right) of users of VaM (can you say piracy?!?!) and visitors to this site every month already before this. The cat is already out of the bag. Steam maybe just gives that cat a kick in the boot.

I'm also planning to eventually offer 2.X on Steam once it is complete. That is a long ways down the road though.
 
my point is not about what is morally acceptable or who is gonna get in trouble where

I just think that vam lacks the content/gameplay to defend itself against a massive shitstorm. there's already screenshots with questionable-age characters posted, that took long lol

View attachment 181862


also leaning into it like this might not help
I saw the image (indeed, questionable). That is very very dangerous consequence of the actual morality anthropologically banal prejudice that common people consider so capital. Hope this will not have impact on the future vam2 development. For sure I am not and never will be a fan of steam-gang bazar.
 
If we have to blaze some trails and hit some bumps, so be it. The main argument in this thread seems to come down keeping VaM an inside secret to prevent its ruin.
if you can you should contact vamx about the screenshots on steam to delete them. if they get reported and steam delete them themselves they might freak out

for me personally it's not about steam, i just think vam as it is now, even with vamx, is not ready for mainstream. it's awesome & groundbreaking, but its UX is for niche use. i think it's very unlikely good things will come from the mainstream crowd based on how it is now and the content that has been made so far. it's honestly concern it's gonna go viral for bad reasons, even cancelled
 
:ROFLMAO: You guys scared of steam, meanwhile LOL. Them damn soccer moms creating self lookalikes in sims and getting smashed by robots and getting gangbanged. Vam is a mans game, and that's a female game. Those women aren't scared so we shouldn't be either.
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I'm about to go crazy on Gbangers like usual and bring more attraction to vam. Link to vam on steam is in my description. Click Gbangers. I'm not worried about nothing.
 
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if you can you should contact vamx about the screenshots on steam to delete them. if they get reported and steam delete them themselves they might freak out
I looked multiple times and am not seeing the screenshot everyone seems concerned about. Maybe it was already removed?

for me personally it's not about steam, i just think vam as it is now, even with vamx, is not ready for mainstream. it's awesome & groundbreaking, but its UX is for niche use.

I agree with you that vanilla 1.X is not ready for mainstream. That is actually the reason I never considered Steam for just VaM itself. vamx did a great job getting VaM as close as possible to mainstream acceptance within the confines of what the base application allowed. The Steam reviews over the next few weeks should tell the story if it is good enough or not for that audience. vamx is also continuing to work on the product to improve it. I'm helping as needed, but my primary focus will be 2.X.

No amount of public scrutiny is going to cancel me from pursuing VaM 2.X. This is a creative tool for consenting adults. What people choose to do with it is up to them. What is posted here is regulated to mainstream acceptance and can be adjusted as needed. Is Photoshop getting canceled for allowing users to make fake celebrity images I see plastered everywhere? Are the sites posting these images getting cancelled? Doesn't look like it to me.
 
still there, two of them by the same dude
1669920839727.png

they're not nudes or anything like that. i just thought you might not want it to get advertised like that on launch while trending and when the description is 'An infinite sexual sandbox.'

Is Photoshop getting canceled for allowing users to make fake celebrity images I see plastered everywhere?
i get your point, the sims point earlier too. from my personal point of view the comparisons are not very good because those are tools with a very large scope. It's one thing that 0.001% of the users misuse it somewhere on some hidden forum. It's a different thing when it seems that it's a massive tool built specifically for weird things and that's all you can really do with it. People are gonna judge it by what they see, not by what you guys write about it that it's a sandbox to build & all that
 
Thanks I reported those images to vamX for removal.

I guess we will see how it goes with the content and public reaction and possibly Valve's reaction. I still just think this is all noise to the mainstream even with a top presence on Steam in adult-only area. The risk you are talking about with public reaction has already played out for me when I launched the Hub and also that Vice article. I realized there is no use in worrying. The best I can do is have this site moderated to my comfort level with rules that are pretty common for adult sites. If anything, we are more careful with what is allowed here than what other sites do.
 
I'm not sure that taking a stance that the Hub should allow for copyright violations is a productive line of discussion.
Can we take that as an announcement that any and all obvious celebrity/character lookalikes will soon be banned, then? And of course, that creators like Sirap will also be banished from the community, as they are serial violators of that basic rule? Rules are rules, and must be applied consistently.
 
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But maybe vam really is like minecraft and the steam crowd will go crazy about triggers and plugin soups, rather than start collecting & porking celebs and be loud and edgy about it.
I can't help but feel this is a reference to what I said. Absolutely nowhere did I imply I was being "loud and edgy" about it. I've been using VAM for this purpose for a long time, quietly and privately (it's not because I'm not posting here, that I'm not using VAM), and if I'm being vocal here today, it's because I'm finding my primary use case threatened. Is that not understandable?

"I'd help but I don't want to give away my Steam ID in case VAM becomes synonymous with celeb porking simulator."

Mate, it already is. It always has been. Anyone who thinks VAM is anything other than a game that lets you have sex with virtual characters is severely deluding themselves. Just what on Earth, dude. The success has gone to your heads.

I might also add... you can ban lookalikes from the Hub, but unless you make a system where ALL content must pass some kind of manual copyright check, people can still sneak in third-party content from the outside. If you REALLY want to make sure people can no longer live out their most sincere fantasies in this so-called "sandbox" unless it's corporately-approved, you'll stomp out the creators who are making a living on Patreon, but independently of the Hub. No fun allowed!
 
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No content is being removed from the Hub due to this release. It has changed nothing in that regard. There are multiple ways for content to get removed from the Hub.
  1. Report is filed using the report button on the content and our team of moderators agree content needs to be removed for violating rules in terms and rules link below.
  2. DMCA filing using the Copyright Policy link below
  3. Other legal filing to our legal representative or registered agent
  4. Original poster of content decides to remove it on their own terms. Some might decide to do that if they are not comfortable with their legal rights on the content they posted.
 
I started this thread hoping to get some basic answers, but I'm glad it's sparking further conversation.

I've already said this in the brief guide I made, but I'll say it again here: I'm a researcher who's looking at a number of applications of XR technology. I decided early into my use of VAM that I wouldn't publish on it by name because it was more fun to not make it part of my work. But I can tell you, other researchers are also aware of this application. There are at least two scholarly papers that have been written that reference VAM with at least 10 other papers referencing them. Most of them are conference papers right now, so not in journals, but it's a foundation to build on. Scholarly research ideally should be a good thing because of the massive power and potential of VAM above and beyond sex, but the tone of those papers is mixed. Journalistic coverage has likewise been mixed, with the overwhelming majority of it in the porn press being positive while the few pieces of what we might call mainstream press coverage has been more sensational and negative. So far, neither scholarly or journalistic press have devoted a significant amount of coverage to this app. Most online VR headset owners are not aware of it, based on what I can tell in the groups I study. My scans of social media (Twitter and Reddit) indicate a very small network posting and interacting with posts about VAM by name. So I can reasonably say that by every available metric, VAM has not meaningfully entered the public consciousness in English language media at least.

I do also know a bit about policy and have worked with many people who develop digital policy. There are several misconceptions in this thread about content hosting and the legal rights and responsibilities of website owners. To put it simply, it is not as simple as saying "we only host" as sites like Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, Reddit and myriad others have found out when being dragged in front of regulators. In the US there is more latitude to be absolved of responsibility because corporate interests dominate the political and legal system. But increasingly there is bipartisan support to possibly shift some of this legal framework. The current head of the Federal Trade Commission is leading one part of this charge, but currently is mostly focused on breaking up monopolies like Facebook because that's where her primary politics lie. Europe tends to be a lot more hands on with their regulation by comparison, but can also be more permissive about things like pornography due to longstanding legal and social precedent. EU regulators seem more interested in taking their cut of things than necessarily stopping them. Paid content providers are far more likely to get hit with a tax or fine than anyone else, but that includes website owners. They also have worked to develop their own public VR solutions (to so far minimal success). China is following a similar course and are certainly known for being very hands on when it comes to regulating just about anything, but most people in China are also among the most savvy when it comes to circumventing the state to use the internet how they want to. Other parts of the world have their own regulatory peculiarities. Russia comes to mind, but they obviously have other issues going on that take precedence, unfortunately for both our Russian and Ukrainian VAM creators. Wishing for peace and change in the near future.

I mention this global view because this is undeniably a global app. I've been a lot of places on the internet, but I've never belonged to as internationally robust of a community as this one. It's part of the charm of this place, but also part of the reason to expand your view of policy beyond whatever is happening in the west. The internet governance policy world is small. People who do digital policy in Kenya or Brazil often know people who do the work in the US or Korea. A casual conversation is all it takes for a small service like this one to end up on a policy or legal radar.

My suggestion to creators is to brand their work as artistic expression rather than part of a game or as more generic software. As I've mentioned elsewhere, art has a lot more established protection than these other categories. Art is the primary focus of VAM in my view. There is no meaningful difference between a person taking a pencil and paper and drawing someone and using DAZ, Blender and Photoshop to achieve the same result. In countries where freedom of expression in the arts is protected, there are a number of legal ways to defend what VAM creators do, whether the conversation is about decency or likeness rights. Calling it artistic expression rather than an unlimited sexual playground is probably a better long form strategy.

I like VAM. I've spent a ton of time in this app and to be real, it's probably what kept me interested in VR both personally and professionally. VAM is gesturing to what a metaverse SHOULD be, which is getting what you want how and when you want it. Persistent social experiences are also nice, but the real promise of virtual worlds is customizability. In that sense, VAM is leagues ahead of many of its competitors. The ability to take digital assets and remix them to your heart's content is infinitely more interesting than having a fake desk to type emails on or a game where you have to shoot everyone before they kill you. I would be very surprised if several people who work for Meta weren't already on this app because there's much they can learn from it, though right now they seem to be headed mostly in strange and counterintuitive directions. My favorite conspiracy theory is that the reason Zuckerberg has gone so hard on this metaverse stuff is because he's here in VAM every night just like the rest of us. They've already added permissions for adult content in Horizon Worlds because if there's one thing they learned from running Facebook, it's that our basest human instincts are the most profitable.

Steam is what provoked me to start this discussion because it's somewhat more mainstream, but in the vast universe of media, it's still relatively niche, with the users of adult content being even more niche. VAM itself is fairly niche because it's not easy to use and that will likely keep journalists, regulators and researchers away more than anything else. VAMX is much easier to use, but the way it ships doesn't necessarily reveal much about the deeper more powerful VAM unless you get deep into the Hub and follow the breadcrumbs to all the other places where you can acquire VAM content. The probability is low that a critical mass of people will weather the learning curve enough to become a problem. That said, all it really takes is a few annoying influencers on TikTok or somewhere sharing something twisted and then it's a problem, as we all saw recently with the swift action to destroy ZLibrary (RIP 😢). What Steam does signal is that there are ambitions to make this thing get bigger, which of course is the goal of literally everyone who ever started a website. I don't fault you for it because we all have to survive in the mire of capitalism, but it pays to be prepared for as many eventualities as possible. A better researcher would be writing multiple papers on what this site and its user base have to teach us about VR and its users, but a community of people literally trying to help each other find better ways to jerk off (often for free) was too charming and, dare I say, noble for me to use to pad my CV. I'm not so sure others will be as charitable, but I hope so. I think the VAM team has done an admirable job of trying to moderate this place and the creators continue to churn out amazing art. You all deserve a bigger audience. Let's just hope it's a good one.
 
I do appreciate everyone's concern. There was already a danger before this release that VaM would go viral and get more press, good and bad. I have already accepted that, so this discussion really doesn't bring anything new to the table for me. Maybe it does for others. Content creators should really be aware they are responsible for what they are posting here and on other sites like Patreon.

There is certainly a chance this community will get the witch hunt treatment and it may be unpleasant if it does happen. The choice is to either shut the Hub down now or continue and face this possible outcome. I choose to face it as shutting down the community would be terrible. This is a great community. I stand by what this site is for. Our site is far tamer than lots of other edge content out there. That doesn't mean I stand by all the content on the Hub now. I can't possibly review everything posted here just like other aggregator sites cannot do that. As long as we reasonably moderate and remove content that breaks the rules we outlined when alerted that is the best we can do.

Thank you
 
And for those worried about DMCA and copyright or other IP infringement. Consider these community pages for the insanely popular Garry's Mod sandbox:


Garry's Mod has been around since 2006. It is published by Valve themselves (!!!), and the workshop is littered with copyright and trademark violations. It is up to the copyright/IP holder to file a DMCA takedown if they don't like it. Valve is not proactively removing this content. That is the same as we are doing here.

The very popular Nexus Skyrim mods site has similar type of content.
 
Well, if VAM either...

- goes up in flames and is taken down off the internet after the inevitable scandal (any day now...)
- turns into a no-fun-allowed place where only the most unimaginative, basic types of sex are tolerated (the result of trying to avoid said inevitable scandal)

...I guess I can still console myself with my own downloaded copy of VAM, right? Does it work offline? If it did, at least I'd still be able to use it for the thing for which it was originally intended: to be a sandbox of free expression. Surely if an asset that technically breaks the rules (like a celebrity or fictional character that's mildly underage) can be acquired from a source like Patreon or Pixiv (bypassing the Hub completely), it becomes a matter of "don't ask, don't tell"? It wouldn't be allowed on the Hub, I agree, but I don't want it on the Hub - I want it in my VAM application, where no one sees it and it bothers no one.

Anyway, would VAM continue to work offline when the inevitable VAMpocalypse happens?
 
VaM has no online presence unless you enable it (in User Preferences). It can work offline forever. If the Hub goes down, some other site will arise in its place to host user content. I really don't think you have to worry about that.
 
"More people came to VaM immediately following the article. "

Yes your only thoughts i said it and it will happen VAM will vanish because of all this Greed that has buildup around it i primarily use it as a research tool for my own ideas.

Prototyping on top and bellow of it and we gain a massive amount of Data from it

it is sad soon we only will have and be enslaved on cloud systems and VAM will be history

I predicted everywhere what will happen in many forums they all pushed me away never understood me i thought you where different mesh i was wrong.,

But it is clear overall you are so much dependent on other they would crush you anyways.


It is really better if Unity takes over VAM entirely it will lead to nothing anymore


Maybe the next MESH will be smarter

We still have a chance but it wont be VAM
 
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I think that there isn't any way to stop the expansion of Virt-a-Mate. Of course the Steam release will bring more users, but already, this isn't hidden from main-stream media, and is available as a public website where anyone can view any creator's work posted here at any time.

I'm not sure that taking a stance that the Hub should allow for copyright violations is a productive line of discussion.

Bullshit you expose it to the masses overall it will be you responsible giving them the full backup to kill it off

You are blind as well VAMX you where clever gathering those lost souls for your own intent and you where successful getting Mesh to agree hope you are happy with what you have achieved for yourself.

I started this thread hoping to get some basic answers, but I'm glad it's sparking further conversation.


I like VAM. I've spent a ton of time in this app and to be real, it's probably what kept me interested in VR both personally and professionally. VAM is gesturing to what a metaverse SHOULD be, which is getting what you want how and when you want it. Persistent social experiences are also nice, but the real promise of virtual worlds is customizability. In that sense, VAM is leagues ahead of many of its competitors. The ability to take digital assets and remix them to your heart's content is infinitely more interesting than having a fake desk to type emails on or a game where you have to shoot everyone before they kill you.

Depends on who you see as competitor
If you look at the Mega Competitors like Nvidia, Sony, Samsung, Microsoft or Tencent
no chance


It is always the same

you got high targets you get corrupted yourself falls

you not only learn from VAM and it's meshed up core but also all it's characters around it @PodFlower 3.0, VAMArchitect, Gbangers, @vamX
 
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You are seriously comparing us to large corporations that have to answer to share holders and stock price stability? Our resources, even with a large Patreon backing, are extremely limited. Compared to other game development budgets, ours are measly. Wanting to bring in more funding for this project through a market like Steam makes sense to further the goals of the project in a sustainable manner.

I have chosen to stay a small private indie game company that I am 100% in charge of, but I didn't have to do that. Over the years there have been several venture capital funding offers that were made to me. Large piles of money (millions) to fund the project. I declined every one of them. I care more about maintaining control of the project and keeping it going with VaM 2.X. If this project was funded, I'm 99% sure I would be pressured right now to make a paid Hub marketplace or something similar to monetize everything and give those who funded me some return. In my mind, that kind of thing would have ruined VaM. I chose to stay private to protect the project and the community.

You know what would also have ruined VaM? No funding at all. Without the Patreon project none of this would have happened. I would have stayed in my previous career and done VaM on the side as a hobby and never actually released it because it took 10000s of man hours to create it. There is a happy medium somewhere in the middle. Not all developers are money grubbing. Some people are trying to make a living around here and build something they really care about. There is nothing wrong with that and you can't convince me otherwise.
 
I worked on projects that countered those mega corporations hard, don't tell me this nonsense it's you who decides the path in the end and you have chosen it.
And of course you have done right to decline those offers others where not so resistant and i give you high praise for that.
Having no Low Level Control of the Engine is a major drawback lot of time got wasted by now just waiting for others to move on.

Lot of People try to make a living with nonsense under VAM they should rather get real jobs and counter finance
 
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Yes I chose this path.

I chose to start Patreon so I could work on VaM full-time (great decision in retrospect, very risky and a bit scary at the time)
I chose to turn down venture capital funding and stay private to keep control and protect my goals and interests which include having a healthy community
I chose to create the Hub to end painful sharing of content on reddit and mega
I chose to make a content packaging system to make it easier for the community to make and distribute their creations
I chose to not monetize the Hub with a marketplace
I chose to divide free and paid sections so those that don't want to see paid content can easily avoid it
I chose to have a paid section on the Hub so those that spend a lot of time making quality content have more incentive or means to keep doing so (obvious downside is low effort paid content which I also do not like)
I chose to not charge Hub users for huge amounts of data download
I chose to not otherwise monetize the Hub (it has a ton of traffic)
I chose to partner with vamX for a retail product because vamX complements the base part of VaM and can reach users vanilla VaM cannot. This is also in response to tons of people asking for retail option because they don't like Patreon or other subscription models, some so much they pirated the content instead.

I stand by every one of these choices. I would do all of it again.

I don't even see what you are trying to say about the mega corps because none of that is relevant here. We are far from a mega corp and they have no control here. Valve is a mega corp, but If Valve pulls the plug on this product for some reason, VaM and vamX will continue on just as before, albeit with less $ to pay others to work on our projects.
 
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