Promoted content on resources

[Captain Varghoss]

First I'd like to say that the new box showing on resources giving a link to dependency creators is a nice touch and I'm all for promoting the work of others, especially when I use it myself.

That being said, I find it's placement to be a bit of a turn off. I don't think someone else's promotion link should exist anywhere above the content that people are choosing to visit and look at. It's basically a huge ad at the top of someone else's content which detracts from the real reason they're on that page. Even more so when that creator is just as easily linked to from the dependency page anyway.

As a suggestion, I think it maybe better placed below the resources post, or on the right hand side below the "other content from this creator" space.

 

[CitizenX]

It's a fair topic of discussion. Just to present another perspective...

First, it's important to note that these promotional links for dependencies only show up if:
A. The dependency package is a FREE resource HOSTED on the Hub (and therefore is downloadable from the Hub itself)
B. The creator has entered a promotional link when creating their resource (and this doesn't have to be a patreon link... it can be a link to any site you want)

The prominent placement of the tags was intentional, as the hope and goal is to incentivize creators to upload their free resources directly to the Hub instead of linking to them offsite. As you'll see when 1.20.1 comes out, the user experience of being able to download a resource and all its dependencies directly from within VaM is amazing. So the more we can do to get prominent creators to share their work here, the better it is for the community as a whole.

And we're not just talking about any old free resources... the ones getting this prominent placement are specifically resources that were good enough that OTHER users chose to include them in their content.

Yes, the link could go in the dependencies tab, but I don't know how much visibility that tab gets. And likewise the "More resource from" sidebar is pretty easy to miss, especially if it's below the fold.

As to it being like an ad... personally I'd say the creators whose content is so ubiquitous across this site -- Acid Bubbles, NoStage3 and MacGruber just to name a few -- deserve the extra attention.

 

[Spacedog]

I 110% agree with the motivation for adding the links, but it does make me feel a bit odd to see other people's links above my introduction to my work that I've put so much effort in to creating. Even if it was just a tiny item it would still appear first. It isn't like I'm not appreciative of other people's work, I always make sure to give them a shout out in the text but I do feel the sidebar is a better place for the automatic links.

 

[Captain Varghoss]

As I said in my post, I'm fully on board with promoting the creators of the content used in other things, that's the biggest reason for me using them in the first place.

However, as Spacedog said, having their Patreon (or whatever) links promoted above and before mine is a bit of a kick in the nuts. It's basically saying "hey, before you even look at this content that someone spent hours and hours creating, go visit and pay attention to the people who really made this possible".

Also, your point about "creators whose content is so ubiquitous across this site", really? They need the extra attention? The 5 or 6 guys that literally everyone knows of because we already have all their stuff and subscribe to their patreons. They're really the ones that need extra attention?

Realistically, there's no good reason to not just put the block at the bottom of the post instead the top, they'll get their recognition (which they already do since it's a dependency) and have their promotional links displayed. Having it at the top and prioritizing it over the people making other content only incentivizes people to NOT use them anymore. I can just as easily post a nude model with generic hair (or non-hub hosted) and not have those links overshadowing my own work. Alternatively, I could just not have my package hub hosted and it isn't there anymore.

Neither of these solutions is the correct way to use the system you guys are working so hard on, but if it's a matter of advertising other creators at the expense of my own content, what's the point?

 

[hazmhox]

First, it's important to note that these promotional links for dependencies only show up if:
A. The dependency package is a FREE resource HOSTED on the Hub (and therefore is downloadable from the Hub itself)
B. The creator has entered a promotional link when creating their resource (and this doesn't have to be a patreon link... it can be a link to any site you want)

The prominent placement of the tags was intentional, as the hope and goal is to incentivize creators to upload their free resources directly to the Hub instead of linking to them offsite. As you'll see when 1.20.1 comes out, the user experience of being able to download a resource and all its dependencies directly from within VaM is amazing. So the more we can do to get prominent creators to share their work here, the better it is for the community as a whole.

The prominent part the argument does not work for me, in a sense that : you can find a way to structure of the content / layout that will bring light to the creators who made dependencies for the package without interfering with the content you are actually trying to preview or download as Spacedog was saying.

Quick mockup ( let's say the text could even float under the box ).

The other part is that it does not make any sense that the potential paid artists have more visibility than "free" artists. I understand that it's just a matter of putting a link ( link that I added after realizing that with Cap and Spacedog yesterday )... but if you don't understand the logic behind it, you will never get this kind of highlight, even if your free content is appreciated a lot among the community.

I'm saying it again : I have nothing against artists that have a patreon. If they want to make money out of their art, it is great. But since the community is also driven by a lot of quality artists that are not asking for anything in return, you cannot give more visibility to paid artists. And if we think about it, from a simple "logical" standpoint. If I had to make a choice... I would give more visibility to the guys who are making free content.

We start to see guys/gals uploading their first look done in half an hour that is at best... bad looking. With a poor presentation, average var packing with dependencies all over the place... and a patreon already setup. Sometimes there is not even a frikkin' preview thumbnail. So it would be crazy that these kind of content would have more highlight than any other content that is properly done with time and efforts put in it.

 

[CitizenX]

Thanks for the mockup... there are certainly other ways to display the information to accomplish the goal, so we can play around with that.

Again, just to clarify... these links ONLY show up when the creator’s specific package is used by the resource you’re viewing. So merely throwing a patreon link on an item doesn’t guarantee you anything. If no one uses your content in their package, you won’t get the link. So we’re only talking about free content that others think is good enough to include in their work.

But the layout can certainly be tweaked.

 

[meshedvr]

How about if there is just an extra box above this other creators box that highlights both your download and your promotional link (if you have one)? That way the top creator's links are featured 1st.

I don't like the additional column embedded in the overview because it takes away from the overview width, and that becomes important for browsing on smaller width browsers.

I also don't like the links at the bottom because they won't really be seen.

In VaM 1.20.1 they are indeed off to the side though. Here is how this looks in 1.20.1:

So perhaps we could work it up into the existing sidebar.

 

[meshedvr]

@hazmhox On this point:

We start to see guys/gals uploading their first look done in half an hour that is at best... bad looking. With a poor presentation, average var packing with dependencies all over the place... and a patreon already setup. Sometimes there is not even a frikkin' preview thumbnail. So it would be crazy that these kind of content would have more highlight than any other content that is properly done with time and efforts put in it.

If the content isn't very good, others won't use it, so it will never appear here in the support-other creators used to make that content section. Only content that someone else sees value in and uses to build upon will get credit. The only promotional links you will see at top are for hub-hosted var files that are delivered for free.

How about a reverse to this argument. Say someone takes a bunch of popular assets, and makes a low-effort free scene out of it, throws up a var of that scene and a Patreon link. Their resource is literally built upon everyone else's work. Shouldn't everyone who did most of the work get high visibility for that?

 

[Captain Varghoss]

@meshedvr that screenshot of how it looks in VaM is literally perfect. It's all completely visible but not at the expense of the content the person is looking at.

Some of this thread seems to be getting derailed a bit. I did not intend on starting a discussion of the whys or hows behind showing these links, it doesn't matter and I don't care that they are being shown.

It's WHERE they are that brought up this thread. If it could be redone to put them in the sidebar in a way that replicates the VaM layout meshed posted then not only would it be an acceptable way to display them, but it would also introduce consistency between the 2, which people will appreciate as they start to use both.

I think an easy compromise would be just below the "Join the discussion" button, and above the 'more resources' box.

 

[hazmhox]

Indeed @meshedvr the column was just an idea, but, you could squash it between "Join the discussion" and "More resources from", it would be a good middle ground since if you like what the author did, you're most likely willing to read a bit more and checkout the right column.

And I do see your point about low quality content.

So more or less we agree, As Cap' is saying, that's more a question of fine tuning the position and finding a cool design for it to be visible and not invasive on the hub. Reducing the size of the buttons is a solution too. Color coding is something that can draw your attention to something without needing it to be big to see it.

 

[meshedvr]

We're going to move it to the right sidebar, below the More Resource From section. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[meshedvr]

@CitizenX made this change and it is active. I think it came out great. We do appreciate the feedback.

 

[hazmhox]

This is great !
We do appreciate the work you put in the hub and considering our input.
Thank you very much @meshedvr, thank you very much @CitizenX !

 

[Captain Varghoss]

I agree, came out really nice. I think it even looks better aesthetically even. Thank you for considering the feedback, you guys rock!

 

[Acid Bubbles]

Yep I think this is a great way to help put in light the work of others! Maybe another suggestion, just looking at names doesn't say much (I wouldn't just randomly click on all names just because they show up), showing the resource(s) used would help understand what the actual contribution was (if more than one, add a +N at the end), for example "Hunting-Succubus\nEnhanced Eyes (+ 2)". Doesn't have to be large or anything, but I think the resource itself is as interesting as the author. I know dependencies already give that info, but without context, I believe those links have less meaning.

 

[hazmhox]

You mean like this ? :3

 

[meshedvr]

We could probably add the package name there. @CitizenX - can you look into this?

 

[CitizenX]

Will do.

 

[Acid Bubbles]

Yep, I think it's nice and helpful! And @hazmhox love what you used as labels I don't know how much info can fit in there (resource type, what do do when there are multiple resources and if you show one, do you use "popularity" to sort them? Do you use popularity to sort authors, or alphabetically? etc.) but it's very close to what's already there in terms of UI for the "More resources by..." sectino

The only thing I'm wondering is whether users will see those as links to patreon, user profiles, or the resources themselves. And if that even matters, really!

This being said, I'm just sharing thoughts, I think it's already great!

 

[meshedvr]

CitizenX implemented this and I just rolled it out on the production side. Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[hazmhox]

CitizenX implemented this and I just rolled it out on the production side. Thanks for the suggestions!

This is great ! Thanks a lot guys.

 

[Acid Bubbles]

Yeah I agree it's low enough not to overpower the resource, while being easy to scan and understand who contributed how!