Solved Part of metal turns black, when rotating the object

[Ghostwalden]

Hi there

I have a few assets, where this strange phenomenon appears.
It is like the Reflection Probe is getting deactivated on some positions of the object.
A metallic part of the model then turns black, while the other part, which has
exact the same material remains as it should.
The part that turns black is a separate element, but with the exact same material as the body.

Just wanted to ask, if someone already had this problem before,
or if someone has an idea what could cause that.

 

[MacGruber]

Your video does not work.

 

[Ghostwalden]

Your video does not work.

Hm... thats strange, it works in my browser without any problem.

Maybe the Gif works.

May

 

[Femcore]

I am not really familiar with these things but just a guess: Is it possible that it has to do with the render queue? Maybe this element has different settings?

BTW: Video and Gif working for me.

 

[Ghostwalden]

Thanks for your reply Femcore

To be honest, i don't know what renderqueue is.
When i go to Debug mode then i see on the Material this Custom Render Queue Field.
But not sure, if it's what you ment.

 

[Femcore]

I am not sure what the settings in unity do. I only know about the render queue in VaM. It is in the Material/Shader Tab.

Wiki Article - 02. Shader

Material Shader “Name Space” This will display the name of the currently selected Atom. You can rename it here as well. Material Tab Global Options ”Save To” gives you three “quick save” slots to save your current material settings to easily transfer them to another atom. This saves...

hub.virtamate.com

When I have strange behavior on materials (for example hair is invisible when looking through a transparent cube) then setting render queue higher/lower can solve this. If you have access to the materials shader and the render queue within VaM, maybe playing with the setting might help?

But I am not really good with those stuff. I hope someone with better knowledge of shader and materials can help.

 

[Ghostwalden]

Thanks for the hint Femcore.
I will check the settings in VAM and see if i can find out something.

But i can't imagine, it's the render queue, because there is a really strange phenomenon.
When i scale the Asset really big in Vam, the black part remains black then, whether i rotate the Asset or not.
And when i size the Asset smaller, i can rotate it, and the problem doesn't show up anymore

 

[MacGruber]

Looks like maybe the ReflectionProbe being too small and not covering the entire size of the object? For each GameObject (you thingy might be using multiple of those?) VaM picks the most appropriate ReflectionProbe. However, a GameObject has to be inside that cube of a ReflectionProbe for it to be considered.

 

[Ghostwalden]

Looks like maybe the ReflectionProbe being too small and not covering the entire size of the object? For each GameObject (you thingy might be using multiple of those?) VaM picks the most appropriate ReflectionProbe. However, a GameObject has to be inside that cube of a ReflectionProbe for it to be considered.

Thanks for your reply MacGruber

I already checked this, the whole object is completely inside the cube of the reflection probe.
I always make sure that the object still has a little air inside that cube.

I also do not use multiple reflection probes, only one per object.

As said the strange pehomenon is, when i scale the object in vam bigger, the black part remains black,
whether i rotate the object or not, and when i scale it smaller, the problem doesn't appear anymore.

 

[Ghostwalden]

Ok, i could now fix the problem by moving the reflection probe to the head of this Object,
where the problem occured.
I also tried before with having the reflection probe in the middle of the object
and making the bounding volume from the reflection probe much bigger.
That worked to a certain amount, when i made the asset in VAM much bigger,
i had the problem again.
With the reflection probe on the head now, i can scale it to max size in VAM
and the problem doesn't show up anymore.

 

[hazmhox]

You're including a reflection probe everytime with your asset?

This is not a good practice since RP are static objects. If yours are bound to the object, rotating the RP/pbject could lead to weird results.
Also, the center of the reflection probe has to NOT overlap with anything, because you'd end with "black spots" inside the bake which could be why you're getting that depending on the rotation.

As I was mentionning on another thread, the RP is like a chrome ball in cinema. And you can't put a chrome ball inside your objects in real life

You should provide a set of reflection probe as standalone assets and explain to people how to use them. Not put a RP inside every objects. This also would lead to problems if there are other RP in the scene (since no one uses proper priority).

 

[Ghostwalden]

Hi hazmhox

Thanks for your reply

You're including a reflection probe everytime with your asset?

Yes i do, if it is a metallic object ?

This is not a good practice since RP are static objects. If yours are bound to the object, rotating the RP/pbject could lead to weird results.

Ok, didn't know that, thought when i rotate or move the object, the RP will move or rotate precisely along with it,
so the Object will alwas stay completely within.

Also, the center of the reflection probe has to NOT overlap with anything, because you'd end with "black spots" inside the bake which could be why you're getting that depending on the rotation.

I understand, that this could be a cause for that phenomen.
But when i check the RP itself, i don't see any black spots or something else on it.
When i have the center outside the object, then bake it and then move it back into the object,
i guess this problem with black spots should not be able to occur then?
Probably the problem comes from what you've said above, that it leads to weird results, when the rp is rotated.

As I was mentionning on another thread, the RP is like a chrome ball in cinema. And you can't put a chrome ball inside your objects in real life

Absolutely right ?
When i do a room, the RP is definitively in the middle of the room, not overlapping anything.

The idea was just, that probably most people around here don't use reflection probes, unless they load a room, that contains one.
So i just thougt i would like to provide assets, that one can just load in VAM and already has the reflection in it then.
Thats why i put the center from the RP in the middle of the Object, so i can make the bounding volume only as big as the
Object is, so the RP from that object can't affect anything else in VAM as long as the Asset isn't in direct contact with another metallic object.

Another option maybe would be, to do assets, that contain both variants.
One with and one without RP, so people can choose what they need.

You should provide a set of reflection probe as standalone assets and explain to people how to use them. Not put a RP inside every objects. This also would lead to problems if there are other RP in the scene (since no one uses proper priority).

As i see, there are already good reflection probes available..
For example:

Assets - Reflections

⊶  ⊷ For assets only Adds a reflection probe with universal reflections to the game. Suitable for metals and glossy materials. Brightness is adjusted with a gradation of 10 percent. Not suitable for assets that already have a reflection...

hub.virtamate.com

What i'm a bit uncomortable with, is, that i don't see the bounding volume of the RP in VAM.
Is there a way to make the aera the rp occupies visible?

 

[hazmhox]

Yes i do, if it is a metallic object

Technically all objects reflect something

The idea was just, that probably most people around here don't use reflection probes, unless they load a room, that contains one.
So i just thougt i would like to provide assets, that one can just load in VAM and already has the reflection in it then.

Your concern should be to provide tools/assets that are properly optimized. If "people" don't read your doc, or don't learn a proper creation process... that's their problem. At least imho.

The thing is, you've created what? 50 props ? 100 maybe ? This means using that technic, you'd end up with 100 reflection probes just for the assets if you had them all in a scene.

Second side effect, someone like me knowing exactly how it should behave, will not use your assets because it will result in a blend of two probes (the scene one and yours) that makes no sense in the context of the enviro.
So by wanting to reduce friction for the "newcomers/noobs", you're probably loosing some advanced creators that are very detail focused and will skip/not use your assets.

Another option maybe would be, to do assets, that contain both variants.
One with and one without RP, so people can choose what they need.

That could be a solution (or a plugin to enable the probe).

What i'm a bit uncomortable with, is, that i don't see the bounding volume of the RP in VAM.
Is there a way to make the aera the rp occupies visible?

RP don't like scaling with box projection. Hence why your "trick" to provide reflections is a very dirty hack. RP should be baked into the scene (or with the skybox) and stay where they are, at the size they're baked at.

The idea is to have a proper set of probe in the enviro, and worst case scenario, have a "neutral" interior skybox/hdri that fits your room. Those neutral hdri could be 25/50 in size and would cover like 99.98% of any use case here ( pretty much no one has enviros that are bigger than 50 units )

 

[Ghostwalden]

Technically all objects reflect something

Yes, that's true, but if it's not metal, it's not that noticeable as it is on metals.

Your concern should be to provide tools/assets that are properly optimized. If "people" don't read your doc, or don't learn a proper creation process... that's their problem. At least imho.

Yes ok, makes sense, will keep that in mind.

I just went throug the earlier thread and didn't understand then, when you said:

Side note: you will not be able to add this for every single asset. You just need to ensure that your assets WILL behave properly if a GI/reflection probe exists in the scene.

The side work is up to the creator of the scene who needs a proper GI in his environment.

Now i do

The thing is, you've created what? 50 props ? 100 maybe ? This means using that technic, you'd end up with 100 reflection probes just for the assets if you had them all in a scene.

Yes, but ok, to be honest, you don't have them all in a scene. Maybe a few.
And as i said, i kept the size of the RP only as big as the object itself.
So as long as they don't get in touch amongst, nothing should happen.
But i know what you want to say

Second side effect, someone like me knowing exactly how it should behave, will not use your assets because it will result in a blend of two probes (the scene one and yours) that makes no sense in the context of the enviro.

Absolutely, thats a problem then, when a RP is in there, that covers the whole scene and then an asset with an own RP gets added to the scene.
I guess, thats why i will provide Assets in the future with both options.
Thanks for mentioning that, i wasn't really aware of that problem.

So by wanting to reduce friction for the "newcomers/noobs", you're probably loosing some advanced creators that are very detail focused and will skip/not use your assets.

Yes, you're right. As said, i wasn't really aware, that people don't use them because of conflicts between several RP's.

That could be a solution (or a plugin to enable the probe).

Is there a plugin available that can do that?
I mean disable a reflection probe of a single asset?

RP don't like scaling with box projection. Hence why your "trick" to provide reflections is a very dirty hack. RP should be baked into the scene (or with the skybox) and stay where they are, at the size they're baked at.

Ok, i understand.

The idea is to have a proper set of probe in the enviro, and worst case scenario, have a "neutral" interior skybox/hdri that fits your room. Those neutral hdri could be 25/50 in size and would cover like 99.98% of any use case here ( pretty much no one has enviros that are bigger than 50 units )

Guess i got that too.
When you said i should provide some reflection probes as standalone, that would mean skybox/hdri RP's then i guess?

 

[hazmhox]

Is there a plugin available that can do that?
I mean disable a reflection probe of a single asset?

That's very specific, so no. But that's not really hard to do. If you can't, hit me if you need some help.
That said a prefab weighs nothing, that's maybe overkill : )

When you said i should provide some reflection probes as standalone, that would mean skybox/hdri RP's then i guess?

Just like skyboxes, but without the skybox, just the RP if you want to optimize. Or you could keep the skybox but generally, it's not very interesting as a skybox (especially for interior hdris).

And you make a cool package with a bunch of probes

 

[Ghostwalden]

That's very specific, so no. But that's not really hard to do. If you can't, hit me if you need some help.
That said a prefab weighs nothing, that's maybe overkill : )

Ok, thanks.
I guess i will handle it the way in the future, that i just add a simple big reflection probe that can
be placed separately if someone want's that.
As you said, the RP does not weight that much and is available then in the "Assetpack",
it can be used then as a static separate asset and it would also make it easier for people who
don't know, how to work with Reflection Probes.
I realized, that it leads to nowhere to put a RP on the Object itself, because i now had
occuring that problem on too many Assets.

Just like skyboxes, but without the skybox, just the RP if you want to optimize. Or you could keep the skybox but generally, it's not very interesting as a skybox (especially for interior hdris).

And you make a cool package with a bunch of probes

Who knows, what Gostwalden will come up with in the Future?
But for the moment i guess, the RP Pack from Norm is perfect for everyone who needs one

 

[hazmhox]

Yup, and you can direct people to norm's pack in the documentation : )