VaM Hub Shop

[Dymista]

We need a shop for content on VaM Hub!

As far as I can see almost all monetized content is being posted on Patreon, which does not make any sense at all, neither for VaM nor for its creators or its users.

First of all, all the fees (plattform, payment, payout, conversion) are going to Patreon instead of to VaM, which could further aid towards growing it and reaching a wider audience.

Secondly, the Patreon model does not make much sense for all creators on VaM since it does not cater towards the purchase of targeted content, on top of which, it puts unnecessary pressure on the creators to churn out more content in order to keep their subscribers instead of allowing them to take their time and create quality stuff.

It may make sense for some very active studios / creators, but this subscription model could also be something that can be easily enabled in a VaM Hub Shop.

Last but not least, for the users looking to buy specific content, lets say any given scene, voice pack, models or whatever, it should be a one time purchase and then a licensing fee if used for the creation of more content (except for the subscription case of very active studios / creators) without the need for a subscription.

Having all the content centralized on one location also greatly simplifies updates / downloads and as mentioned above the licensing issue, which can be easily solved as a microtransaction / % of sales price.

Furthermore, by implementing one time purchases of specific content, pricing can be much more favorable for creators as well as its users, besides the obvious output of higher quality content.

There are countless use cases which support this, from the creative mind that wants a side hustle and upload his occasional creations, voice actors, motion capture studios or just the simple user which is interested in specific content.

Not to mention the fact that by breaking down all the different parts to create a scene and monetizing them for their relative creators, from sounds, motions, clothing, models and so on, the creation of quality content and the growth of the platform is highly incentivized.

Ultimately, what makes VaM unique are all of its creative minds as well as their content. By having its own shop to fairly compensate the creators for their time and simplifying the purchase for users, there is no limit to what this can grow into.

 

[TToby]

VaM has a very strong community. The development of VaM is/was sponsored by the community, user questions are answered by the community, testing and bug reporting comes from the community, new ideas come/came from the community, most content comes from the community... why the hell can't we go a way like all the big game modding communities on Nexus & co, where all community stuff is free OF COURSE!
As an old internet pioneer I am sad about the growing monetization of the web. This is just the way it is... but I am shocked about users even demanding this. For me, a way to make earn 3rd party money with VaM even more easy than it is now, is just exactly this.
Yes, developing high quality stuff takes time, and maybe we will get more quality stuff by allowing some creators to earn a compensation for this. But by doing so, we now have a situation where every "Hans and his dog" are getting Dollar signs in their eyes and jumping on board of that train. People who once may have shared their mediocre stuff for free now thinks "why not me, too?". I think I am not the only one who would be very sad, if, after years of patronizing VaM, we finally will find ourselfe standing outside of a massive pay-wall.
IMHO what VaM realy needs, especially if we are about to start from almost zero with the version 2.x (old stuff will get incompatible) is a lot of free stuff to attract and keep users and to keep the great community alive... not a second DAZ-store. You want to support VaM? Then go and create free stuff (not adressing the OP). Don't degrade VaM to be just an "app with ingame-purchase". I fear things like this will come early enough.
Free the Web! ;-)

 

[Dymista]

VaM has a very strong community. The development of VaM is/was sponsored by the community, user questions are answered by the community, testing and bug reporting comes from the community, new ideas come/came from the community, most content comes from the community... why the hell can't we go a way like all the big game modding communities on Nexus & co, where all community stuff is free OF COURSE!
As an old internet pioneer I am sad about the growing monetization of the web. This is just the way it is... but I am shocked about users even demanding this. For me, a way to make earn 3rd party money with VaM even more easy than it is now, is just exactly this.
Yes, developing high quality stuff takes time, and maybe we will get more quality stuff by allowing some creators to earn a compensation for this. But by doing so, we now have a situation where every "Hans and his dog" are getting Dollar signs in their eyes and jumping on board of that train. People who once may have shared their mediocre stuff for free now thinks "why not me, too?". I think I am not the only one who would be very sad, if, after years of patronizing VaM, we finally will find ourselfe standing outside of a massive pay-wall.
IMHO what VaM realy needs, especially if we are about to start from almost zero with the version 2.x (old stuff will get incompatible) is a lot of free stuff to attract and keep users and to keep the great community alive... not a second DAZ-store. You want to support VaM? Then go and create free stuff (not adressing the OP). Don't degrade VaM to be just an "app with ingame-purchase". I fear things like this will come early enough.
Free the Web! ;-)

I definitely understand your point. It is a fine line between growing the user base on a consumer and a creator side, both need to be kept happy, kept in balance and grown organically.

From a logical point of view, nevertheless, the creators come first, because they create the content. No content no users, more content, more / longer users.

As to me, this is what digital plattforms are all about if they want to grow and keep their users happy, content, content and more content.

Think of youtube, tiktok, pornhub and so on.

Optionally the interface is so simple that the average user can even create their own content and further grow the plattform by himself.

In the case of VaM, as it is today, the entry barrier for the average user is too high to create their own sophisticated scene without the need of a significant time investment.

Therefore the majority of the quality content has to be produced by the creators.

Time is the most valuable asset a human being has, youll never get it back and you cannot buy it.

If you want to give it away and make other people happy, good on you, but everything has its limits.

If you think of this in a 5 to 10 year time scale, the dedication may fade, other commitments become priority. One still needs to earn money to live in our society.

Having this in mind, whats wrong with people earning a living while doing what they love.

I firmly believe that only by opening this door, VaM is capable to well live into the future.

Certainly both is possible, free and monetized content. Optionally the plattform actually pays the creators and incentivizes them to keep on going, but thats well into the future.

Right now we are at arround 12k, and capture well below 1% of the potential market. The most challenging question is how do we get to 100k, 1Million or even 10 Million.

As I mentioned before, its all about content, besides marketing / awareness and definitely an opportunity for the creators to earn a good living to keep it coming.

This is the way, and of course free content always needs to be available but the current patreon solution is definitely not a good one.

 

[Mantamo]

The shop would probably at least require some sort of mod team that would quality control it and those who would want to sell their assets would need to first submit their asset to the mod team and they either accept it into the store or reject it.

 

[TToby]

I understand you point of view, too, but I also think we are on a completely other level of thinking.

From a logical point of view, nevertheless, the creators come first, because they create the content. No content no users, more content, more / longer users.

You are right with the content. No content, no users. But I would change this into "no free content, much less users". In the case of VaM, the users are creating content. From the community for the community. Sure, there will be some people attracted to VaM who wants to make their living with it... in my experience those content is not neccessarily better than the free community content. But they are making profit from the help and previous work of the community and the example is drawing away those active creators of free content.

By the way, there is already a very big shop for thousands of paid content: the DAZ shop. VaM is made with the ability to use DAZ content in mind.

Our two sides are IMHO like:

DAZ store and DAZ on one side vs. a Game company plus the free enthusiasts driven game modding community on the other side.
The first is giving away DAZ for free and is making money with licensing content, milking the users with bringing out incompatible figure generations every few years. The second is making money with selling their product with free modding in mind, which will keep their product alive without having to do anything but let the users do their thing. Both are profitable buisness models.

The most challenging question is how do we get to 100k, 1Million or even 10 Million.

That is your oppinion... my most challenging question is how to keep the users happy while keep the project going on. Happy users = monthly payment. Free stuff attracting new happy customers = more possible free community content creators attracting more new customers aso.

I bet the more profitable way is to go the DAZ route... but for this, you have to have a very attractive ready made and well positioned popular product, and, last but not least, the strong will to milk your customers, instead the will to create something new that makes the people happy. The later sounds naive from a buisness standpoint, but I think MeshedVR is (or was?) such a person.
I don't think VaM would have grown to be this successfull with a "pay to fap" buisness model right from the start.

 

[TToby]

The shop would probably at least require some sort of mod team that would quality control it and those who would want to sell their assets would need to first submit their asset to the mod team and they either accept it into the store or reject it.

Ohhh... no!
Not a mod team! Staff members! Lawyers, data protection experts, warranty guys, web progammers, support hotline, licensing crew, aso.
Those shop would make money with licensing fees which have to be payed from the content creators. Maybe not right from the start, but after a while. Don't think you get this for free.
I am running a small buisness myself, but even while not selling something on a web shop... can you imagine how many regulatories and laws you have to care about? Multiplicate this for a international shop selling(!) to many different countries. A nightmare! You can probably sourcing out many of this, but that will IMHO eat up much of the profit... like how it is now with Patreon.
All that hussle... for what? Grey hair, early heart attack, lots of stress, unhappy community, much severe monetary consequences if it fails...

 

[Mantamo]

Ohhh... no!
Not a mod team! Staff members! Lawyers, data protection experts, warranty guys, web progammers, support hotline, licensing crew, aso.
Those shop would make money with licensing fees which have to be payed from the content creators. Maybe not right from the start, but after a while. Don't think you get this for free.
I am running a small buisness myself, but even while not selling something on a web shop... can you imagine how many regulatories and laws you have to care about? Multiplicate this for a international shop selling(!) to many different countries. A nightmare! You can probably sourcing out many of this, but that will IMHO eat up much of the profit... like how it is now with Patreon.
All that hussle... for what? Grey hair, early heart attack, lots of stress, unhappy community, much severe monetary consequences if it fails...

Yeah that's true.

 

[checkking]

The level of monetization for the content is proportional to the entry barrier and learning curve to create that content. In the case of VAM, you can't really enjoy the game without the extra content, which makes it worse. Solutions for more free content (many would still come from the community):

• Improve the UI, make it more intuitive, make it "higher level" for many common tasks. There should be a beginner UI hiding the parameters that 90% of the users don't change and set the parameters to the "best default value", just to help with the learning curve. Like an advanced tab in many sections, or just a toggle option to switch between an advanced and beginner UI.
• Improve the tools/plugins for creating looks/scenes
• Improve accessibility or workflow with third party tools like facegen. Many workflows for creating the best content/looks require specific technical knowledge and third party tools, which adds to the entry level barrier.
• Tools to convert VAM 1.X content to VAM 2.X

The main problem is that even the plugins that aim to solve the complexity problem or improve usability end up with 15+ buttons and parameters. Then you end up with many of those plugins, all exposing their 15+ variables, and that's what we call an acceptable scene, because these plugins are a hard requirement for a good scene. Something needs to be done to merge those efforts into something more usable, even if opiniated (remove direct access to parameters, replace with default values or additional logic). If you make it easier to create high-quality content, more will be shared or it will make less sense to ask money for something easily doable by more people.

I develop software and a lot of time is spent making the UI/UX better. It's hard for someone that understands the code to understand how powerless and intimidated a user can feel if you expose all those variables in the UI. It's great for the early contributors, people with the knowledge and enthousiasts, it's just not something you can scale with.

 

[DJ]

Meshed has said he has no interest in opening an official VaM webstore for just the reasons TToby outlines. Way more of a headache than it's worth.

 

[HolySchmidt]

In general, I totally agree with what @TToby said: content should be free for all so everyone can enjoy everything. But let's face reality: if there's money to be made, it will happen. And good quality content takes time, so I could totally understand if the creators want something back. We are not close friends in here, we only share one same interest.

Of course(!) I totally appreciate if someone puts out quality stuff for free! I made a thread just to say thanks to all of them. But have a look at it! 90 clicks, 1 reply. This board has 16000 members. Have a look at all the ressources being made, how many ratings? How many likes? And how many downloads? It does hurt no one to say at least thank you! If I were a creator I'd say: fuck you. 10 hours, 20 hours or more spent and no one responds? That's depressing.

I do my best to at least give some good feedback, but the majority is just consuming. Because it is free. There should be at least any system so that you HAVE TO respond in any way, a like or dislike for example, if you use a ressource.
And regarding the people who wanna get paid: if no one buys, no one earns money. As always. I paid twice to 2 creators for all of their stuuf, and I had no problem with it. Because 2-4$ is like nothing for 100+ hours of work.

 

[TToby]

There should be at least any system so that you HAVE TO respond in any way, a like or dislike for example, if you use a ressource.

Sounds a bit harsh on first read and impossible, but at NEXUS, the famous platform for all-free (!) game-mods (thousands of hours of work, too), there is a system doing exactly this.
Everytime you have downloaded something, there will be a nag-screen at one of the next days you log in, to remind you to give a rating to all of your still un-rated downloads.

 

[Mantamo]

I have a feeling that there's also a big amount of users who don't even have HUB account because it's not required for downloads. Implementing account required for downloads could encourage community interaction if that would be the case.

 

[HolySchmidt]

Was thinking the same. You can download without having an account. Nevertheless, this board has 16k users. The amount of anticipation in here is ... minimal. I can see it's about sex and therefore there's a natural border of feeling ashamed participating. I could imagine a lot of the users, not members, are not even 18, which would be no problem for me.

But I could imagine as well that meshedVR, or whoever is in charge for all this, is trying to push the numbers (downloads/users), for a future capitalization of this project. Because let's be honest: this thing could be a money printing machine. Big time if you ask me. I mean I paid 8$ + some patreons. If 2.0 will be as good as it looks, I'd pay 30-40$. Of course not everyone can afford this so as long as the user numbers are pretty low the price has to be relatively low. But the software is worth more than 8$. Way more.

 

[Williamwow123]

having a central location for all files would be nice, but I would think putting a price tag on each of creation would cost way to much in the long run or leave a lot of work unused/appreciated , I hate to admit it but when I sub to a creator for something like new panties I get to download all the work they have done for one small fee, when I do this I tend to stick around for a few months to see what they come out with while appreciating the old stuff. I understand that people like to use VAM for money but Meshed only charges $2 for a life long key so someone having a store page with 100 looks totaling anywhere from $50 to $500 depending on the creator and dozens of creators would be a little ridiculous imo.

 

[checkking]

One idea would be a showcase system for paid assets (by asset I mean everything), in exchange for a unified license system for those assets.

• Assets would be release for free after X months and usable by everyone
• License grant is exclusive to usage within VAM (note that creators can choose to share outside of VAM or earlier, just that the "free to use after X months" grant is only for VAM)

That mechanic could favor a huge amount of free assets in the long run by offering more visibility to creators that are willing to give that asset away after some time.

 

[TToby]

I mean I paid 8$ + some patreons

Till now, I have paid more than 300€ for VaM... If I have calculated it correctly... like many others.

 

[LooksHunter]

Monetised stuff being on Patreon would be a bigger problem if MeshedVR himself didn't have an account there. I quess creating infrastructure themselves is way too much hassle, and while I would rather have the cut from creations go to the studio rather than to Patreon, it is what it is. I keep my 8e subscription going as I want to invest into this project, but truth be told I have spend much more money on independent creators.

 

[Lione]

The curenty patreon distribution has no future in my opinion and i am sure people would luv a VAM Store same as the decent creators
then being able to offer their content at one platform.

My dream ideal VAM distribution Store Plaza would be:

- Creators have their own dedicated "homes" inside the VAM Plaza and can distribute content in a variation of subscription shemes or single purchases

- Creators work together and share together.

Trust:
A approval process with a certificated Logo so every VAM user who is buying content can trust in that they receive quality content.


Monetizing:

A exclusive Creator's dependencies library with "internal" micro transactions.
As a certificated creator you can freely add your plugins /assets / clothings / hair / skin creations to the creator library because you would be monetized in micro transactions if a creator uses your dependency and if he picks such of the catalouge.
The more a creator picks the more micro transactions will flow to all involved depending on your sales / download stats.

Sametime a creator can create Art unlimited being "unlimited" in having a dependency library access of other artists.

Sametime VAM Users can profit from receiving true replicas of a creators imagination with premium comfort and no longer being in the need to hunt for dependencies.

Premium Selections:

VAM Users can decide their own what kind of look replica they would like to receive from the Artist.

Such who like pure looks pick the nude look.
Such who like the advertised Look / Scene replicas can buy the standard look / scene.
Such who like to receive a variation of looks can buy the special edition set which includes a variation of pose presets and perhaps a variation in dependencies like two sets of clothings or look matching hair .
Such who only like to receive the look Scene plus poses presets as being advertised can buy a pose presets pack.

A VUMHUB 2.0 Online School:

Approved creators can offer paid online live courses for beginners or advanced or Pro VAM Users to learn for example

- how to create female or male or fantasy looks
- sculp a model
- create clothing
- create Scene environments and lightning / effects
- create animations
- create assets
- programm VAM plugins

Funding Virt a Mate:
Instead paying Patreon with 20 to 30 % of your current incomn, a part of that will go to Virt A Mate for being the application developer / tech and licences / store costs plus improving and supporting the applications improvements and future.

 

[TToby]

OK,
I don't like the whole monetrarization idea because I might be a bit naively idealistic...
But why inventing the wheel again?
You may ask for an own VaM section at Renderotica.com for instance, or an other shop for 3d content.
As I said above... building up an international operating onlineshop is IMHO not that simple. You maybe only think about European data-protection laws or warranty rights. This may become a big hassle with a high financial risk and wouldn't be free for sellers, too.

 

[asparagus]

I, too, am frustrated with the current method of getting paid content. I don't like Patreon. At all. It has terrible UI. Its model also doesn't correspond to the way creative people work. It forces artists to produce at regular intervals. Like a factory. But creativity, inspiration often comes in bursts. It cannot be controlled. Anyway, that's not the point.

The biggest inconvenience is caused by the fact that I cannot download paid content as easily as free one. I cannot simply click Download All in the Hub Browser. I have to go to Patreon, sometimes find the post, find a download link (Patreon has shitty colors so that's not always easy), figure out how to download, what to download, move downloaded files to AddonPackages, and then find the scene in scene browser somehow. Maybe also scan for missing packages. Shit's tedious! And ironic. One would expect a payment to make things easier, not harder.

It would be cool to enter my card details into VAM once, and then just use Hub Browser for all content forever.

I totally get that shop stuff would take ridiculous effort that is better put into VAM itself. I am a programmer myself. I don't know how to do it more easily. Perhaps Stripe has it all covered? They have SDKs for everything.

Patreon does have one advantage and that is lowering processing fees. Charging one big amount is cheaper (for them) than 10 small ones. And VAM shop will have to do the same somehow.

One way to do this is to only sell "points" for real money. Sell everything else for the points. Also, encourage users to do desired activities (write reviews) by giving them points for that. Creators could exchange points for payouts.

VAM itself could take a point off every sale, as well as authors of every dependency used in the package being sold. This will make them very rich, which is great.

Perhaps this can help make VAM free for everyone to download and use?