What would be the PC requirement for the future VaM 2.X?

[haroldwithlove]

I am thinking buying a new PC (desktop not laptop) and want to make sure it will accommodate VaM 2.X in the future and I am particular confused by what kind of graphic unit I need.

Specifically, do you guys think this one
Amazon.com: OMEN 30L Gaming Desktop PC, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Graphics Card, 10th Generation Intel Core i7-10700KF Processor, 32 GB RAM, 1 TB SSD, Windows 10 Home (GT13-0080, 2020), Shadow Black : Everything Else

would be good enough for VaM 2.X in the future?

I personally believe it should be good enough, but I can make my budget much lower if I choose, say, NVIDIA GTX 1660. What do you guys think? Do I need to choose NVIDIA RTX 30X0 over NVIDIA GTX 1XXX if I don't use VR?

I did see Meshed VR mentioned that " A goal of the 2.X version of VaM it to be optimized for a broader range of hardware and offer performance scaling features to enable use on lower-end hardware. ", but I guess the general requirement would still be much higher...

 

[TToby]

It is a bit difficult for me, because my magic crystalball is still in RMA, but I will give it a try
A relatively sure guess would be: It will be the same requirements like now!
It will utilize your hardware better and therefore will run much smoother, but at the same time we will get some shining new performance-hungry toys and our expectations in general will be higher than they are now.

As I said before, I can't say for sure what the requirements will be.
But I can say: Without VR (are you sure you really never want to try it the next years?) those 3080 PC is an overkill
for nowerdays VaM, if you don't use a 4k gaming monitor or very demanding VaM scenes.
Even an old RTX 2060 with a 5 years old i7 and 16GB would be enough for this. If you want to be future proof with future VR in mind, the 3080 sounds not too bad.

 

[haroldwithlove]

It is a bit difficult for me, because my magic crystalball is still in RMA, but I will give it a try
A relatively sure guess would be: It will be the same requirements like now!
It will utilize your hardware better and therefore will run much smoother, but at the same time we will get some shining new performance-hungry toys and our expectations in general will be higher than they are now.

As I said before, I can't say for sure what the requirements will be.
But I can say: Without VR (are you sure you really never want to try it the next years?) those 3080 PC is an overkill
for nowerdays VaM, if you don't use a 4k gaming monitor or very demanding VaM scenes.
Even an old RTX 2060 with a 5 years old i7 and 16GB would be enough for this. If you want to be future proof with future VR in mind, the 3080 sounds not too bad.

Thanks a lot! I thought since they plan to use Genesis 8 characters for VaM 2.X, the hardware requirement would be significantly raised...

About VR, I have tried VR before but felt a little dizzy after using it.

 

[TToby]

You are welcome.
Moving to Genesis 8 alone would not raise the requirements. As a fun-fact: the current Genesis 2 figure is the DAZ figure with the significantly most vertices / polygones.
It is the new rendering engine plus the new features that makes me believe we will see no significant decrease in performance requirements. VaM 2.0 should be using modern hardware way better than V1.x. For instance it will use more of your CPU cores. Additionally it will be made all new with performance in mind.
Most likely the new render engine will be running much smoother, too, but at the same time it raises the quality enormous. Quality will come with a certain amount of costs. Shaders, additional maps, whatever. Only the developers will know this for sure at the moment. But due to the better render quality I bet we will see at least a much larger benefit for using multiple light sources. The more light sources, the more requirements.
An other feature of the new Genesis generation is the ability to use HD / HQ morphs that will add physically more details = more polygones to the figure's surface. At the moment we are only able to use Normal Maps, which do not alter the surface, but only adding light effects to simulate this. AFAIK it is planned to add that feature to VaM, too. This will be indeed more performace demanding.

Long story short: Yes, I believe VaM V2 will run much smoother and will make full use of high-end hardware. All together V2 will be less performance heavy. It will run a little bit better on weak PCs and much better on power PCs. But that plus can easily be eaten up from optional new quality settings.

 

[HolySchmidt]

Just wait for the 4000 series, then the prices will drop hopefully (for you). I can say 3080 is a very good card. 1000 series is not technology of yesterday, it's technology of last week. So if you can afford this and you not only use it for VaM in desktop mode but for gaming in general as well, buy it.

The thing with buying old technique is always the same: you buy cheap, have less fun, and a year later or two you buy again. If you buy up to date technique you have the most fun and you can wait for 3-5 years (or even longer) but in the meantime you can just enjoy the best graphics.

That's just my 2 cents. If you have the money, buy the 2nd best available (the best is too expensive) and have fun.

Regarding your VR experience: I've read several times people experienced the same problems as you, but going with a different (better?) headset their problems were gone. Maybe you should try another one, it's 100% worth it.

 

[TToby]

Regarding your VR experience: I've read several times people experienced the same problems as you, but going with a different (better?) headset their problems were gone. Maybe you should try another one, it's 100% worth it.

Absolutely. Since I had VR 2016, I almost never had played a flat-game anymore.
Wether you can stand it without getting dizzy or not strongly depends on the game (1st person shooter are not very good for VR, but looks gorgeous), the headset and even your daily fitness. Some are prone to simulation sickness (like me) but getting used to it with time, and only some very few absolutely can't stand it.
But it is an expensive hobby.

 

[HolySchmidt]

To be honest: I tried Half Life Alyx and I couldn't stand it, 30 minutes and I was out. Too much movement in too much directions. Same with moving around with the camera in VaM too fast: I'm getting dizzy. But moving slow is no problem at all.

 

[TToby]

To be honest: I tried Half Life Alyx and I couldn't stand it, 30 minutes and I was out. Too much movement in too much directions. Same with moving around with the camera in VaM too fast: I'm getting dizzy. But moving slow is no problem at all.

Same with me. At the moment it is really bad again. You know those guys saying "you just have to earn your VR legs"? What they don't say or know is, that you can loose those "legs" again.
When I played SkyrimVR (still one of my favorite VR games) I have trained myself with little steps to not getting dizzy. You have to be cautious to not overdo it, or your brain will learn VR=getting dizzy. After that I could easily play for 8 hours a day with no brake. By the way, in Skyrim I had one of my best VR-experiences with a gigantic cave where you can look down on a creek and some trees at the bottom from high above. I remembered those scene from my old 2D playthrough, but this time I was really "there" (in VR).
After Skyrim I played through FalloutVR (buggy as hell, but great in VR) with no issues. Then I had paused playing big games till Half Life Alyx... (wasn't that the time where I discovered VaM?), tried to play it like I was used to, overdone it, and was dizzy as hell up to the point I couldn't play for 10 minutes anymore. Even in VaM I sometimes feel a rumble in my stomache now. I should face the the fact, that I have to move my ass and do the VR training all from the start.

Long story short: VaM in 2D? For me absolutely unthinkable!

 

[haroldwithlove]

Just wait for the 4000 series, then the prices will drop hopefully (for you). I can say 3080 is a very good card. 1000 series is not technology of yesterday, it's technology of last week. So if you can afford this and you not only use it for VaM in desktop mode but for gaming in general as well, buy it.

The thing with buying old technique is always the same: you buy cheap, have less fun, and a year later or two you buy again. If you buy up to date technique you have the most fun and you can wait for 3-5 years (or even longer) but in the meantime you can just enjoy the best graphics.

That's just my 2 cents. If you have the money, buy the 2nd best available (the best is too expensive) and have fun.

Regarding your VR experience: I've read several times people experienced the same problems as you, but going with a different (better?) headset their problems were gone. Maybe you should try another one, it's 100% worth it.

Thanks a lot! I really like your second and third paragraphs. I used Oculus quest 2 before. HTC is much more expense but I am not sure if it really improves the quality. What VR headset do you use?

 

[Guy]

We should have a better idea once 2.x alpha ships later this year, hopefully. They're still early on for 2.0 release though (non-alpha) so you may just want to wait. It might be another year or two before it's at the same level as 1.x

I'd recommend getting something that works well in SteamVR. I use an Index.

 

[DarkFantasy]

I get sick in some games. Driving the Scarab in Elite Dangerous is the worst with the low gravity effects while bouncing and driving across moons all while swiveling your head. Also combat in fast spinning ships while swiveling your head to keep your eye on your target(s) in space is rough sometimes. What works for me is to breath slowly and deeply through my nose and it goes away. Its simple, (seems too simple), but effective for a lot of people. I hate to think someone is missing out on the wonder of VAM in VR!!

 

[HolySchmidt]

@haroldwithlove
I use the Valve Index, I have a very big distance between my eyes (search for IPD, important) and that is a plus on the index because it has one of the biggest distance setting and is easy (mechanical) adjustable. Of course it's just an overall good headset, no complaints. Very good sound as well, really surprised about that. Still expensive though.

But to be fair: I use the headset only for VaM. I'm not interested in VR gaming except simulations (will try it out). Don't know, I like 2D regarding digital entertainment. 3D movies is not my style either, and I'm a movie fan. Too much impressions for my head and eyes. I watched my first 3D movie in the cinema (Avatar), it took me about 30 minutes to even understand it with my eyes. After the movie, I was kind of exhausted. And I do like roller coaster, no problems with that. It's just about your head kind of knows something is wrong, and he's right.

The technique in general is great, but humans are not build to put on 3D headsets. Could be different with augmented reality. But at the end, it's all fake reality. I like the good old reality.

 

[TToby]

Valve Index, too. I had the OG Vive and therefore it was cheap to upgrade, keeping the basestations and controllers. Love it, mainly for Lighthouse tracking... but it's about time for Index 2, Lol.
I have to speak against HolySchmidt "Humans are not build for VR hmds". That is what our ancestors always said with an upcoming technology... "humans are not build for driving with a speed faster than a horse carriage, humans are not build to fly, humans are not build for leaving the cave and live as farmers..."
It is a new technology and despite so many say "VR is dead" for some years, it is here to stay. If not for games, then for something like VaM. The Internet once was mainly for porn and look what it is now.

 

[HolySchmidt]

Yeah I know what you mean, but I have to disagree with you as well. Never in history of mankind humans developed a technique like VR. This is not even comparable with industrialization or flying cause you can touch a factory and you can feel the movement in the air. VR is totally different, it's just tricking your brain into make it believe what it sees is actually real, but i isn't. Still your brain THINKS it is.

Thit is the paradoxon of this technique, and this never happened before. Of course there are other effects that trick your brain, but that is all not comparable to VR. What people said about the old "new techniques" was only based on fear, an unfounded fear. VR is about senses.
Just look up (I think you already did) on youtube for all those "people experiencing VR for the first time" stuff, it's hilarious, and scary.

What I am saying is: people actually experiencing what they see in VR, that is totally different from watching a movie where you still have a surrounding, an environment. You know and you see: a screen. A picture in a frame. You know it because your brain tells you so. Even if you would only see the picture, you would still know it's a picture because there is no depth and you can't interact. If you are in VR, your brain tells you it's real even though you KNOW that it isn't. That's the paradoxon. Some people get along with, others jump right into the TV screen or running against a wall.

The more immersion you add to it the more you think it's really real.
You can't trick your senses, they trick you.

 

[TToby]

You are right with every single word you say, but IMHO this makes it sound overly dramatic.
The human body is a biological machine. We trick our brain and body every day, unintentionally or intentionally. It is highly philosophical if the "you" is devided from your senses or body and who tricks who. What is reality, and is the "reality" we are sensing real? There are people much smarter than us debating about this. There are scientist who even say, only a little percentage of what we think is real is real.
Books, puppet theatre, movies, horror stories while sitting by the campfire, all of this has measurable effects on the body's chemical balance, because a small part of us is thinking it's real. Coffee, THC, alcohol, hormonal or psychotropic drugs, Escher paintings, magic shows, 18th cent stereoscopic viewers... all of this is tricking your brain and body.... And people loves it! If there is any possible way to let them sense something special, people will do it.
And it is so easy to trick the human brain!
Sometimes there are negative consequences like in you linked video clip. Getting seasick didn't stop mankind to travel the sea, in the 19 th cent there were several girls comitting suizide after being immersed by a Jane Austin book, kids crying real tears about Dumbledor's death, or ask my wife how often I squeezed her leg while watching a horror movie.
I jumped into my wall several times in the beginning, and sometimes I still do (bloody Headcrabs!). So what?
You learn from your failures and now I wrap an old T-shirt around my sharp steel door-handle before playing. Because VR is new, people don't know how to handle it, but they will learn it... and sadly the VR effect is wearing off a bit after time.
At the end VR is nothing really new or even high tech. Nothing magical at all. It is only a little more than to strap two TV screens to your forehead and let them sense you a fictional story.
Therefore I can't agree with your thesis.
It looks scary at the first look, but the brain is tricked all the time.
For me, VR is nothing more or less than the somewhat logical evolution of imersive entertainment:
Campfire-story -> fictional books -> movies -> computergames -> 3D movies -> VR -> brain-plugs ...
Hey, where can I sign-up for a brain-plug?


Because the text turned out to be a bit indigestive, here is something funny:

https://imgur.com/oId6Nks

 

[HolySchmidt]

Thanks for the extensive reply. I can agree with you partially. Let's leave it like that

 

[TToby]

Thanks for the extensive reply. I can agree with you partially. Let's leave it like that

Yes, thank you!

P.S. for all users that could not watch my Imgur-link: just google for "ape plays VR"

 

[HolySchmidt]

@haroldwithlove
Forget what I said about waiting for the 4000 series. I thought it would be released at the end of 2021, but it's probably end of 2022! Sorry!
So my advice: buy what you wanna buy, now.

Having a look at the global chip lack, prices will be higher in the near future i guess. Could be that 4000 series will be even more expensive than 3000 series already is and was. So, the longer you wait, the more you will probably pay, regarding price/performance ratio. But at the end, you have to decide. I bought my 3080 for 880€ (December 20) at a time most of the people said "Naahhh, too expensive, I'll wait!". I can tell you: best decision in a long time.

We all know where the story went. Global market is crazy right now, shipping costs are out of control, people wanna game at home, miners need GPUs for mining bitcoin and whatever.

 

[Jiraiya]

From what I read about vam2 is that the pc spec will be "similar" in performance to vam1. What they gain in performance increases they are spending on improvements.

 

[TToby]

Yes, after those detailed new VaM2 infos, I'm happy that my guessings from above were not that wrong. Otherwise it would have been very embrassing.
Bad thing about that new informations: The tension is getting to the max. I am very exited to finally get my hands on that alpha.

 

[ESC]

From what I can see the biggest change to PC specs is going to be HD space and possibly ram as the textures are looking to get much bigger. I don't know how that pipeline is going to be managed, so I don't know if the bigger textures will require more ram or vram or if it will manage to stream it.

But if the clothing and skin textures all get 4x bigger like they were saying I can see my poor ssd crying, and my 16 gigs ram might be a bit light?

 

[ESC]

@haroldwithlove
I use the Valve Index, I have a very big distance between my eyes (search for IPD, important) and that is a plus on the index because it has one of the biggest distance setting and is easy (mechanical) adjustable. Of course it's just an overall good headset, no complaints. Very good sound as well, really surprised about that. Still expensive though.

But to be fair: I use the headset only for VaM. I'm not interested in VR gaming except simulations (will try it out). Don't know, I like 2D regarding digital entertainment. 3D movies is not my style either, and I'm a movie fan. Too much impressions for my head and eyes. I watched my first 3D movie in the cinema (Avatar), it took me about 30 minutes to even understand it with my eyes. After the movie, I was kind of exhausted. And I do like roller coaster, no problems with that. It's just about your head kind of knows something is wrong, and he's right.

The technique in general is great, but humans are not build to put on 3D headsets. Could be different with augmented reality. But at the end, it's all fake reality. I like the good old reality.

Avatar is a pretty bad example for a movie to watch as an early 3d movie honestly. They did a lot of force focus tricks that are super annoying for the viewer. Like when you are looking at a background character and then they focus in on a foreground characters. That is a bad viewing experience forcing the user to get a headache or look at what the movie maker wants you to look at. The same thing is done in 2d movies of course, but focus in 3d works very different. Personally I think 3d should be filmed at infinite focus lengths as much as possible and let the viewer focus on objects of their choice. This is all from someone who sucks at cameras and has never made a movie, so I am probably talking out of my behind. Just some thoughts.

Regarding motion sickness in VR I am a freaking tank. I have never gotten sick, and I have played through Dying Light in the hidden vr mode using mouse and keyboard. Yeah. Mouse movements in 2 axis controlling my head while doing crazy parkour.

 

[HolySchmidt]

Like when you are looking at a background character and then they focus in on a foreground characters. That is a bad viewing experience forcing the user to get a headache or look at what the movie maker wants you to look at.

Exactly what I experienced! You can't focus on what you want in a 3D environment. That makes no sense at all and is a pain in the ass for your brain, like: "Why am I not able to see my focused objects sharp?"

Regarding motion sickness in VR I am a freaking tank. I have never gotten sick, and I have played through Dying Light in the hidden vr mode using mouse and keyboard. Yeah. Mouse movements in 2 axis controlling my head while doing crazy parkour.

... what? Dying Light in VR? Amazing!

 

[ESC]

Yeah, look up dying light VR, it was clearly being made with a VR mode and then they just never finished it. It is literally one line in a text file to enable it.

This was way back pre-quest so the number of headsets was much less and people had less stomach for motion sickness, so I am sure their test audiences had poor experiences.

Just gamepad or mouse, most of the modern vr controllers didn't exist then.

 

[Toonen1988]

Newer technology doesn't mean higher requirements, it can also mean the opposite. Newer technology can also be better optimized. I'm not worried about the upgrade genesis 2 to 8/8.1. I'm more worried about the lighting effects. As I understand, 2.x will also increase the performance of lighting. I'm heavily focused on lighting because it creates a more in-depth and atmosphere in scenes.

As for now, I only make screenshots for a novel I want to make in the future. But when it comes to the real-time scenes or VR, then yeah it's unplayable. So, I'm looking forward to how much lighting will be optimized in 2.x.