Question I cannot achieve over 30 fps in VR. Some Questions. Pls assist...

[Virtyourmate]

Hey so i have a 3 year old 3080 gpu + ryzen 5 2600 3.8 + 32 gb + ssd.
I use Quest 2 + virtual desktop on default settings & a dedicated router on wifi 5ghz.
I believe Steam vr runs the connection.
I run most scenes on medium settings. I have to mess with mirrors and realtime body physics to keep 30fps.

I upgraded from a 1060 for more fps but im seeing almost no improvement.
When streaming to a wireless headset like q2 = I use to get 25 fps ish (drops to 15fps) on a standard scene but now I get 30 fps ish which often drops to 20 fps ish.
Ive tried over clocking without much luck.

Also the actual loading of any scene despite ssd is very slow averaging anything from 2 mins to 5 mins.
I've tried Quest Link and Air and even steam link with worse results (though only on default settings).

This issue is across all scenes and any half decent scene by e.g. cuddle mocap or alpaca laps struggles but anything by C&Gstudio barely runs lol
These scenes are often 2 looks (male / female) with almost no frills or complex hair but usually some fancy lighting.

QUESTIONS:

• Is the above the optimun setup for pc streaming to quest 2 ?

• Is this realtively low FPS (for vr) normal for this rig ?

• Is steam vr app necessary? ( I dont quite understand its purpose on top of the virtual desktop app on q2 and on pc).
• 
  
• Would a quest 3 be better or worse ?
• 
  
• What should i actually be upgrading to see real results ? (cpu? motherboard?)
• 
  
• Is 60fps on average even possible in VR and if so how? []-)

Any suggestions would be helpful. Ive read through some old and recent similar posts but am none the wiser. If you have a link to a guide please share.
Thank you for your time and expertiese.

 

[HolySchmidt]

Hey Virtyourmate

Your GPU is enough (though for VaM it's never enough), you have 32GB of RAM (excellent), your CPU is what is making me a little sad
Have a look here: https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-Ryzen-7-5800X3D-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-2600/m1817839vs3955

On paper this is not a monster jump (you are interested in single core performance always with VaM 1.X), but the 3D cache is making a big difference from what others said on the forum. In general, a 5800X3D is a price/performance killer CPU and the best you can get for AM4 socket. So if you wanna have more fps the easiest way and probably the best "price/fps-ish" way, get a 5800X3D. Sell the other one, be happy for a couple more years.

Every other way is new mainboard + RAM (DDR5) + CPU (new sockets) and eventually new GPU (to fit new CPU).

 

[Virtyourmate]

Hey Virtyourmate

Your GPU is enough (though for VaM it's never enough), you have 32GB of RAM (excellent), your CPU is what is making me a little sad
Have a look here: https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-Ryzen-7-5800X3D-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-2600/m1817839vs3955

On paper this is not a monster jump (you are interested in single core performance always with VaM 1.X), but the 3D cache is making a big difference from what others said on the forum. In general, a 5800X3D is a price/performance killer CPU and the best you can get for AM4 socket. So if you wanna have more fps the easiest way and probably the best "price/fps-ish" way, get a 5800X3D. Sell the other one, be happy for a couple more years.

Every other way is new mainboard + RAM (DDR5) + CPU (new sockets) and eventually new GPU (to fit new CPU).

Ahhh its as i feared lol

I have an older gigabyte gaming board AB350.
I suspect i need maybe a AMD ryzen 7 5600-5800x3d (prob a 5700 on my budget) but i think ill need a new mother board but i only just redid my desktop pc cable managment so would rather just swap out the cpu but not sure if thats worth it with an old motherboard...lol

thanks

beyond that is my setup for quest 2 the norm ? via steam vr and virtual desktop etc. ?

and with a new cpu (and main board) should i finally be getting 60fps ish in vr on most scenes?

thanks again you are an asset to our community :-D

 

[HolySchmidt]

Thanks for the kind words

The big difference with mainboards is voltage supply, other than that it's connections and minor differences. So this should be no problem. You have an AM4 socket, 5800X3D is an AM4 CPU: that's a match.

What fps to expect would be no legitimate statement as there are so many factors playing a role with using VaM. You should experiment with body physics, clothings, hairstyles, light count, environments and even textures to see how you can achieve your wanted fps. Cause it's absolutely no problem bringing fps down, put 2 females in a scene with soft body physics, 4 lights, some simulated clothings and a complex hairstyle: boom. 30fps with a 13900K and a 4090. Something like that.

So if you achieve 60fps or not is up to you. You have to adjust various things to get there, no matter what system you own. VaM is killing every hardware, and the reason most of the time is physics (body, clothings, hair) and the limiting factor then is the CPU.

 

[hazmhox]

and with a new cpu (and main board) should i finally be getting 60fps ish in vr on most scenes?

No : )
(as @HolySchmidt tried to explained less bluntly )

The problem is: "most" (to use the same word as you) people don't really optimize their scene properly OR think about the VR performances.
Technically, there's a quick math you can do: take your scene in desktop, look at the framerate, divide it by two and you got your average VR framerate.

If your rig can run a desktop scene at 120fps, then you got yourself a nice scene you could run at around 60fps in VR.

I've done a LOT of tests to say the least, and you cannot get a steady 72fps in VR if you have two characters, with advanced clothes (simmed) and detailed hairs. Which is generally the baseline for scenes here.

On top of that, you can add the usual performance issues created by some clothes or hairs. Some of them can really kill a scene framerate just by having it at "default settings". And some creator don't realize that.

So, to be exactly fair with your sentence: no, you will not be running MOST scenes at 60fps. Yes you COULD technically run scenes at 60fps in VR... BUT only if the scene is properly thought and optimized.

This, is obviously in a context of "ultra" settings. Dropping several settings could help you out get better results.

But to give you an idea, we recently released Midnight Moves with Juno and Timbo, and the scene is running above 120fps on desktop. The minute I dropped another character which has stupidly basic clothes, very basic hairs... is not animated, has zero soft body physics... the framerate go almost down to 70/75fps. Which in VR will result in more of a 40ish/45ish scenario.

I'm not saying that to disappoint you, but more to warn you. So that you don't get your hopes up too much thinking you'd run every single scene at super high framerate.

Don't forget the community is close to a "modding" community. A handful of people have very high technical knowledge and can optimize their content very well. The rest of the crowd either does not have that level of knowledge or simply... the patience to do so : )
( or simply enjoy a scene that runs like ass at 20ish FPS in VR with a stupidly brutal gear lol )

 

[Virtyourmate]

Thanks for the kind words

The big difference with mainboards is voltage supply, other than that it's connections and minor differences. So this should be no problem. You have an AM4 socket, 5800X3D is an AM4 CPU: that's a match.

What fps to expect would be no legitimate statement as there are so many factors playing a role with using VaM. You should experiment with body physics, clothings, hairstyles, light count, environments and even textures to see how you can achieve your wanted fps. Cause it's absolutely no problem bringing fps down, put 2 females in a scene with soft body physics, 4 lights, some simulated clothings and a complex hairstyle: boom. 30fps with a 13900K and a 4090. Something like that.

So if you achieve 60fps or not is up to you. You have to adjust various things to get there, no matter what system you own. VaM is killing every hardware, and the reason most of the time is physics (body, clothings, hair) and the limiting factor then is the CPU.

thanks yes ive found that over the years but in vr my current fps is a joke for even basic scenes so i have to do something haha

Do you think a AMD Ryzen 7 5800X3D would be worth the extra 100 up from a 5600 ? or is there another cpu which with more cores for around 300 which might be better for VAM ? im never quite sure if vam is software or gaming and so what it benefits from best. Clearly its cpu heavy but even within that what matters most for physic based sims...

 

[Virtyourmate]

No : )
(as @HolySchmidt tried to explained less bluntly )

The problem is: "most" (to use the same word as you) people don't really optimize their scene properly OR think about the VR performances.
Technically, there's a quick math you can do: take your scene in desktop, look at the framerate, divide it by two and you got your average VR framerate.

If your rig can run a desktop scene at 120fps, then you got yourself a nice scene you could run at around 60fps in VR.

I've done a LOT of tests to say the least, and you cannot get a steady 72fps in VR if you have two characters, with advanced clothes (simmed) and detailed hairs. Which is generally the baseline for scenes here.

On top of that, you can add the usual performance issues created by some clothes or hairs. Some of them can really kill a scene framerate just by having it at "default settings". And some creator don't realize that.

So, to be exactly fair with your sentence: no, you will not be running MOST scenes at 60fps. Yes you COULD technically run scenes at 60fps in VR... BUT only if the scene is properly thought and optimized.

This, is obviously in a context of "ultra" settings. Dropping several settings could help you out get better results.

But to give you an idea, we recently released Midnight Moves with Juno and Timbo, and the scene is running above 120fps on desktop. The minute I dropped another character which has stupidly basic clothes, very basic hairs... is not animated, has zero soft body physics... the framerate go almost down to 70/75fps. Which in VR will result in more of a 40ish/45ish scenario.

I'm not saying that to disappoint you, but more to warn you. So that you don't get your hopes up too much thinking you'd run every single scene at super high framerate.

Don't forget the community is close to a "modding" community. A handful of people have very high technical knowledge and can optimize their content very well. The rest of the crowd either does not have that level of knowledge or simply... the patience to do so : )
( or simply enjoy a scene that runs like ass at 20ish FPS in VR with a stupidly brutal gear lol )

This is soooo true and i know it but i still dont want it to be true haha I keep banging my head against vam despite using it for fun and to create and to help others for years now. I just never learn. BUT i cant accept 20fps so ill try the AMD Ryzen 7 5800X3D and hopefully see a bump to a solid 30 fps in most scenes.

TWO GIRLS in 1 SCENE!>!
I learned not to try that along time ago (I see you C&G studios!) haha
I dont even bother with embody or posession and just use hands for those few extra fps lol
I strip most scenes down to nothing for VR.

Im shocked that things i knew within the first few weeks of VR VAM are still not being implemented in 2024 scenes but I guess if they dont prioitise vr that makes sense but i cant imagine using VAM in anything but VR especially now PASSTHROUGH is so easy and "effective / immersive".

Youre so right about still how few scenes are optimised for VR. I spend hours remaking scenes to be vr friendly and its so frustrating for the few secs....I MEAN FEW HRs of fun they give!!! (lol .

I will try the upgrade this week and report my findings

- Though I still wonder if the streaming element plays a significant factor ? I dont get much lag but is steam vr for quest 2 /3 and virtual desktop still the way to go and does the streaming element make much of a difference? (from VD to LINK to AIR LINK to STEAM LINK etc).

 

[hazmhox]

thanks yes ive found that over the years but in vr my current fps is a joke for even basic scenes so i have to do something haha

Do you think a AMD Ryzen 7 5800X3D would be worth the extra 100 up from a 5600 ? or is there another cpu which with more cores for around 300 which might be better for VAM ? im never quite sure if vam is software or gaming and so what it benefits from best. Clearly its cpu heavy but even within that what matters most for physic based sims...

You will NOT notice a huge difference between a 5600 and a 5800 on VAM.
Mark the bold text, I'm specifying VAM. In a normal situation (any other game) you could hope for a 10 to 15+ % boost by choosing a 5800X. Even better: I think the "3D" CPUs are just a marketing move and not worth the 100+ bucks on top.

Has mentionned earlier, VAM 1 has a problem with multithreading... the best move would be to have a CPU that is the fastest possible on a single core. But honestly I think you should not build a rig for VAM 1, and wait for VAM 2 to hit to think about that... especially if you have a limited budget.

VAM 2 will be multithreaded, and all those issues should go away (or at least, improve).
If you still want to improve your rig, and you want to upgrade your CPU, you won't be disappointed by a 5600 compared to a CPU that is far less cheaper and will not make massive difference in your favourite VAM scene : )

 

[Virtyourmate]

ok so i upgraded to a 5800x3d and yes finally i have over 30 fps and often 45 fps if i strip down the scene for VR. This is how it should be for everyone and its a real shame its not and its taken me years for affordable tech to catch up.

• Virtual desktop has really improved too. Is that what most people use for VAM ?
• 
  
• And if so do you use VDXR or steam vR ? And codex h264 or hevc etc ?

Im still wondering if my actual streaming set up could get me extra fps and nearer to that golden 60 fps lol

thanks again to all for advice...

 

[hazmhox]

ok so i upgraded to a 5800x3d and yes finally i have over 30 fps [...]
thanks again to all for advice...

No probs!

As a frame of reference: a long while ago, I was hitting 45fps with an old rig and a 1660Ti. You can argue that I know my way around and that I extensively modified scenes to run smoothly with a rig like that (which is true)... but VAM works like this... if something is running like ass, there's a problem somewhere (or too much people in the scene).

I never use virtual desktop. VAM starts, Steam VR starts automatically... I don't see why I'd need an intermediate app

For that golden 60fps, unless it's a solo scene, hardly gonna happen sadly. Eventually VAM 2 with conservative settings : )

 

[HolySchmidt]

Using SteamVR as well.

@Virtyourmate
Glad to hear! If you wanna have some extra fps disable glute physics. This can help a lot, if not needed.

 

[Virtyourmate]

Using SteamVR as well.

@Virtyourmate
Glad to hear! If you wanna have some extra fps disable glute physics. This can help a lot, if not needed.

ive never dared use them lol

so with a new ryzne 7 5800x3d ive seen a small improvement but im stil around 30fps so i tried the performance patch for ryzen 7

CPU Performance Patch (Up to 30% faster physics, up to 60% more FPS) - Plugins + Scripts -

As requested in this thread https://hub.virtamate.com/threads/benchmark-result-discussion.13131/page-37 here is a release of the cpu performance patch. FAQ at bottom Now Supports VaM 1.22.0.12! Please share before and after benchmarks with...

hub.virtamate.com

so far not much success though marginally better.

The real sad thing for me is ive upgraded from a 1060 / ryzen 5 3200 to a 3800 / ryzen 7 3800 which cost me around 1000£$ in total and i had hoped to see a marked improvement and in games i have. I can now run alan wake 2 in 4k at 60fps with ray tracting which is great but VAM is still around 30 fps or even less for a cuddle mocap dance or a alpaca laps etc.

And im aready running it all on bare bones stripped down.

I keep thinking that my streaming method via virtual desktop and steamvr is a factor but cant get much info on this for VAM VR.....

 

[hazmhox]

The real sad thing for me is [...] VAM is still around 30 fps or even less for a cuddle mocap dance or a alpaca laps etc.

And im aready running it all on bare bones stripped down.

I keep thinking that my streaming method via virtual desktop and steamvr is a factor but cant get much info on this for VAM VR.....

Run Midnight Moves, the desktop version with the camera ride. In desktop mode first. Open the perf monitor, reset the average, then return to use with the final score.

Do the same but in VR (still with the desktop version)... if that runs at 30fps you indeed might have a "bottleneck" on the streaming part.

A 3080 should allow you to have at least 100fps on the desktop camera ride... so you should have more even in VR.

 

[CheekiBreeki]

@Virtyourmate
As the discussion here has pointed out, there are lots of factors affecting the final FPS you get in VaM, and even more factors for VR fps.

You can use the benchmark scene, and the discussion thread results, to ensure you're getting correct performance comparing to other folks with similar CPU+GPU combo.

Benchmark - Plugins + Scripts -

Measure VaM performance of your PC in a reliable way. Compare with others to make hardware upgrade decisions. Why? What is this? As a side project, I was looking at PC components for upgrading my old machine. That made me browse through various...

hub.virtamate.com

Benchmark Result Discussion

This thread is intended to share and discuss result from the MacGruber Benchmark plugin. As a side project, I was looking at PC components for upgrading my old machine. That made me browse through various forum threads on the Hub discussing FPS in VaM. Everyone is posting random FPS values, but...

hub.virtamate.com

If you're good on the desktop fps side, then you can check things to optimize on the VR side.

• First is awareness of CPU bottlenecking. VaM is not optimized for multi-core CPU usage and it ends up bottlenecking GPU performance. You can use GPU-z or MSI Afterburner to check GPU usage when in VR. If it's below 90-95%, you're being CPU bottlenecked. For this the best fixes are to reduce soft physics cost like disable glute physics, and use the CPU performance patch.
  
  
• Next is checking if your VaM settings and VR resolution settings are too high causing higher GPU cost in VR. Typically your VR fps would be much lower than desktop fps since VR is rendering two screens (1 per eye) and at a higher resolution.
  • First is VaM Performance Settings, you can reduce MSAA to 2x, and set lower physics rate which should help fps. Try to match physics rate to be a multiple of the capped fps you're aiming for in VR for smooth physics.
  • Next is checking what effective resolution VaM is running at. The VaM internal render scale 1.0 value is dependent on what resolution you've set for the VR device outside VaM. This could be the resolution setting in Quest Link app, SteamVR or Virtual Desktop. Since you mentioned using Virtual Desktop, use lower resolution settings like Medium (2016x2112) or High (2496x2592). This will be the 1.0 render scale value in VaM.

Finally, getting consistent 60+ fps in VR with even 1 person scenes is difficult even with the best gpus. Final solution is to use Spacewarp frame interpolation to double your framerate. This does come with motion artifacts, but I've personally found it to be an acceptable compromise for the added smoothness. So you can aim to hit 36/45 fps with optimizations, and double it to 72/90fps with spacewarp in Virtual Desktop (or ASW setting in Quest Link). For both, force it to use spacewarp always so your fps isn't jumping around and stays locked.

 

[Seraphim]

ive never dared use them lol

so with a new ryzne 7 5800x3d ive seen a small improvement but im stil around 30fps so i tried the performance patch for ryzen 7

CPU Performance Patch (Up to 30% faster physics, up to 60% more FPS) - Plugins + Scripts -

As requested in this thread https://hub.virtamate.com/threads/benchmark-result-discussion.13131/page-37 here is a release of the cpu performance patch. FAQ at bottom Now Supports VaM 1.22.0.12! Please share before and after benchmarks with...

hub.virtamate.com

so far not much success though marginally better.

The real sad thing for me is ive upgraded from a 1060 / ryzen 5 3200 to a 3800 / ryzen 7 3800 which cost me around 1000£$ in total and i had hoped to see a marked improvement and in games i have. I can now run alan wake 2 in 4k at 60fps with ray tracting which is great but VAM is still around 30 fps or even less for a cuddle mocap dance or a alpaca laps etc.

And im aready running it all on bare bones stripped down.

I keep thinking that my streaming method via virtual desktop and steamvr is a factor but cant get much info on this for VAM VR.....

Also use the openvr_fsr mod/app and youll get remarkably better framerate in all your vr games especially vam. Sounds like your very gpu limited, so not making gains per cpu mods.