Question Went from Ryzen 1700x with a 1080 to 3700x and 2070s then to 5800x with 3070 to a 3080 TI

[Battletoad08]

All those upgrades and gained around 10fps... Going from a Ryzen 1700x and a GTX 1080 I was excited to see what VAM did on a 3700x and a RTX 2070 super. I gained like 4 frames per second... Couldnt believe it and many tweaks did nothing. Well I upgraded to a Ryzen 5800x with a RTX 3070 and seen ZERO change at all. Well last night BestBuy had a camp out to get a card in the morning and I ended up with a RTX 3080 TI...
I benchmarked about 7 games before I took the 3070 out and tried the 3080 TI. I easily gained 30 to 80 frames on most games.

Guess How many I gained in VAM? about 3.... 3 average and I tested the same scenes, same settings and everything. What a joke.

How do you go from a 3700x to a WAY faster 5800x CPU and gain zero... Then go from a RTX 2070 super to a RTX 3080 Ti and gain 3fps???

Neither the CPU or the GPU get no where near 100% usage, maybe cpu 20% and the gpu 60-70% This doesn't even make sense....

 

[Johninvr]

That’s crazy to hear! But unfortunately echos what many others have stated, VAM apparently just doesn’t take advantage of the newest hardware.

Even though your FPS didn’t improve much, what about the rendering and textures? I’ve read that other users didn’t get much of a boost in FPS but did notice how much more detailed and intense the textures on their atoms could be.

 

[TToby]

As you have maybe read in several other performance and hardware related threads, VaM 1.x is very bad optimized in utilizing your hardware.
And it doesn't matters if you have AMD or Intel.
It has several severe bottlenecks and it is because of the old game engine version that was used to build on when VaM was only a little more than a funny small proof of concept... A new version, which is done all new completely from the start is in development, but maybe will need another several months to be completed.

Many of the critical parts in VaM are running on only a single CPU thread.
Even if you will go from an old CPU to a new one, the jump in raw single-core performance will not be that big.
As I was young, every new CPU generation nearly doubles the performance of the older one, aproximately every 1.5 years.
Nowerdays there are only relatively small differences in speed, mostly coming from more cores. This is not comparable to GPU generations.
As an example: before I have bought my new 5800x last year, I had an seven (!) years old i7 4790k with old RAM running VR very OK, and compared to the new CPU in VaM the difference was only a few fps, too (no AMD discussions please, it is as fast as an Intel in other games).

 

[Williamwow123]

you must be the luckiest person alive to get your hands on 4 GPS in this age, dont worry that 3080 TIE will come in handy for VAM 2

 

[MacGruber]

Neither the CPU or the GPU get no where near 100% usage, maybe cpu 20% and the gpu 60-70% This doesn't even make sense....

The Ryzen 7 5800X is an 8 core CPU with 16 threads. If you got a single core maxed out, it will show a CPU usage of 12.5%. So you got the VaM main thread and a second worker thread that has another core partially used. You can check it like this:

1. Press Ctrl+Shift+ESC to open TaskManager
2. Click "More details" at the bottom.
3. Go to Performance tab, then CPU
4. Right click the graph, and "Change graph to" and set it to logical processors.
5. Now you see the load for each logical core of your CPU.

A usage of 60-70% for the GPU means it is waiting for something. With VaM that is likely the CPU. Although it could also be VSync, which means waiting for the next refresh of your monitor or VR headset. Note that most VR headsets lock you to 45Hz, if your rig can't make stable 90Hz. Its better to measure performance differences in VaM Desktop mode with VSync off.

If the CPU is the limit that may mean you can't get more FPS on your system. However, since your GPU still has reserves, you could use them without loosing FPS. For example you could increasee resolution. In VR you can use the RenderScale slider in VaM's User Preferences. Also you can set MSAA to 8x. This improve image quality a LOT, especially for hair. After switching from a GTX980 to an RTX2070 I could set RenderScale to 1.5 and enable MSAA 8x instead of 4x. Day and Night difference. Obviously you could also have a more complex scene in terms of background assets, etc.

Another thing that may (or may not) be an issue is your mainboard and RAM. You did not mention it, so I have to guess. Are you maybe still using your old mainboard and RAM, because its still AM4 socket it physically fits together, but you can't use the potential of the new CPU/GPU? The 5800X should be way faster, even in single core. Most people, even many programmers, don't realize how important RAM is. Quite often the CPU is just waiting for fetching some data from RAM. Most CPUs are roughly 50x faster than their RAM, so you waste a lot of time on just waiting. So, clever engineers invented CPU caches and hyperthreading. However, that only helps so much, if the data is not in cache and there is no other thread to switch to while waiting.

Ryzen 5800X should be able to support up to about DDR4-4000 without overclock, although officially only up to DDR4-3200 for some reason. Make sure the board supports it, too. RAM with low CL/Latency number also helps, there is a reason these are WAY more expensive. For your CPU I would recommend a DDR4-4000 Kit with CL16. Difference between a cheap CL18 vs. expensive CL16 is roughly 10% faster memory. Whether that direclty translates into % fps I can't tell you, certainly not 1:1, but it may help slightly. However, a good CL number is almost more important than a high DDR4-xxxx number. There are also CL15 modules around, but prices are insane..

Another thing to check is whether you mounted your RAM correctly. Check your mainboards manual in which slots the RAM modules are recommended to be mounted. You want them to operate in Dual Channel or Quad Channel mode. You might also want to check in BIOS whether that mode is enabled and the XMP profile stored in the module is used, although that should be the default. In any case, all your RAM modules should be identical from the same production batch. Don't combine different modules or you can't use Dual/Quad mode. (That's why they are sold as kits of 2 or 4)



Last but not least, VaM performance also depends a lot on the scene. E.g. you might notice my DoubleTrouble scene running faster than other scenes with 3 characters. It's because I turned of Advanced Colliders for the characters as they are not needed, and some other minor things, which gains a lot of FPS on my machine.

 

[Battletoad08]

If the CPU is the limit that may mean you can't get more FPS on your system. However, since your GPU still has reserves, you could use them without loosing FPS. For example you could increasee resolution. In VR you can use the RenderScale slider in VaM's User Preferences. Also you can set MSAA to 8x. This improve image quality a LOT, especially for hair. After switching from a GTX980 to an RTX2070 I could set RenderScale to 1.5 and enable MSAA 8x instead of 4x. Day and Night difference. Obviously you could also have a more complex scene in terms of background assets, etc.

Another thing that may (or may not) be an issue is your mainboard and RAM. You did not mention it, so I have to guess. Are you maybe still using your old mainboard and RAM, because its still AM4 socket it physically fits together, but you can't use the potential of the new CPU/GPU? The 5800X should be way faster, even in single core. Most people, even many programmers, don't realize how important RAM is. Quite often the CPU is just waiting for fetching some data from RAM. Most CPUs are roughly 50x faster than their RAM, so you waste a lot of time on just waiting. So, clever engineers invented CPU caches and hyperthreading. However, that only helps so much, if the data is not in cache and there is no other thread to switch to while waiting.

I appreciate the detailed reply.

My mobo is a Gigabyte Aorus Elite x570 with an M.2 drive
My RAM is G.Skill Trident Z DDR4-3600 CL16 running at 3733 with the correct timings.
Dual channel at infinity fabric 1:1 ratio

Ive tried desktop mode and VR mode, render scale doesn't change the FPS much but it deff makes a difference between 5-8 fps and at these low frames it matters. Im talking a scenes with 2 girls and one guy. I normally disable soft body physics on the guy and the girl that is not the main. Lower hair down to 16 and 16 iterations. Most of my 2 person scenes run fine 40-50fps, but the 3 ppl scenes dip down to 22-29 fps...

Ill do some more tests but with all the same settings and only a hardware update from a 3700x to a 5800x from a 2070 super to a 3080 Ti is a 3 to 5fps upgrade... every other game is 30- to 80 or even 100 in some. I thought van would atleast game 10-15....

 

[TToby]

Please make sure not to set Supersampling higher in SteamVR AND VaM the same time.
I did some tests yesterday and now I am relatively sure, that those two settings are interfering with another, maybe even multiplying, like in some other VR Games.

For whom it may be interesting:
I tried to stress test my system (5800x, 6900xt, CL16 3600 RAM, x550, Valve Index on 144Hz) to the maxx.
I load one of my biggest scenes with 3 people with full sets of clothes hair, animations and a big environment...
If I use 200% supersamling and MSAA 8x like MacGruber said, I easily will reach 99% GPU usage with 72 to 120 fps. GPU power consumption was over insane 220W. CPU usage is like predicted above. Naturally, fps has dropped to much lower values if I turned my head quick or moved a person around like crazy. Quite normal with VR and the poor physics in VaM, I think.
I have to explain, that I am very prone to simulation sickness and can even sense fps droppings to under 70fps.
Then I got crazy and I have trown in everything I could think of: It has ended with approx 5-6 persons with full clothing sets, hair, animations and up to 8 big environments. Adding lights was one of the single things that has increased stuttering the most obvious. I ended up with unplayable 15-20 fps and severe stuttering.

That is reflecting what was said above: If VaM is slow or fast, it highly depends on how you will use it and what you will add to your scenes.

The most interesting thing for me was to see my RAM usage. Unlike most other games, VaM was using a real big chunk of my 16GB (which should realistically ! be more than enough). It was 9-11 GB with even a normal scene. Unfortunately I forgot to watch my VRAM, too.
With adding all those stuff, I could relatively easy reach 15GB, but after this, it always drops back to 14.something GB again and again. This made me seriously thinking about upgrading to 32 GB RAM to save my M.2 from too much file swapping... even if it was only for such an extreme usage...?

@MacGruber Thank you for your very good and detailed explanation!

 

[MacGruber]

Thx @TToby, I'm currently thinking of upgrading my poor old i7-4770K which needs overclocking to keep up at all to an 5800X as well. So, after @Battletoad08's experience I wasn't sure whether that would actually do anything. I kind of hoped you were just using some super old mainboard and RAM or something, which could have explained this. Just in case, listing the unlikely/stupid causes as well: Maybe heat is a problem, causing CPU/GPU to throttle down? Have you tried whether running with an open chassis makes a difference? Otherwise, any software running in the background? Maybe one of those useless "optimizers"....or are you mining bitcoin in the background?

Hm, maybe it would make sense to setup a proper benchmark scene. One with plugins that ensure you all got the same settings, exactly the same camera perspective, and of course exactly the same assets and characters etc. Probably some kind of fly through scene where we can do an average over? Could also cycle through different settings, make sure your machine is properly warmed up, etc and write out results as a text file so you can post it easily? That way results would be more comparable. I think I will be back in some 2 weeks or so

 

[TToby]

maybe it would make sense to setup a proper benchmark scene

Yes, please! Do one benchmark scene, but with some nice effects to stress the users hardware a bit more, so we would see some differences. With your reputation, that one could grow to a real standard.

Heat! A very good educated guess, that I hadn't in mind. Yes, heat is a big issue for many systems, but many users don't pay enough attention to this. Heat is one of the issues, why a gaming Laptop could never reach the level of a tower system, or why many high power builds can't reach the full potential. With my 6 years old overclocked 4790k and my old overclocked 980ti, I could stay (very) warm at winter without a radiator while playing VaM. I have needed seven big fans on high speed to blow out the hot air, roaring like a quadcopter drone in front of me while running a bit more demanding VaM scene. After that experience, my new build now has a full watercooling loop with two full sized radiators.
So a 3080ti will easily use 220W and more, creating a corresponding ammount of heat, those heat has to be cooled down. Not comparable to a relatively harmless 2070.

 

[Battletoad08]

maybe it would make sense to setup a proper benchmark scene.

Make this scene and put it on the hub and maybe make a thread where ppl can post specs and fps averages. Im afraid some ppl would lie tho.
I dont have an issue with heat as my PC is water cooled/aio the air circulation is very good with ac right next to it in a 60 f degree room.

 

[TToby]

I'm currently thinking of upgrading my poor old i7-4770K

As I was coming from a very similar CPU, Board and RAM, I have to say, that for VaM it will be a difference, but not that big as one may thought. I would even say, for VaM it is barely visible. Upgrading from a HDD to a SSD or upgrading the GPU will be a much bigger jump.
So you have to upgrade your Mainboard and your RAM, too, I really would think of this twice, if it is only for VaM 1.x. The single core speed of CPUs didn't make such a big jump than GPUs in the last 7 years at all, and with the single core only, the RAM speed or board architecture can't really show its potential.
... And the hardware prices are still not in the "normal" range.

What one should consider is, that a CPU and a GPU have to work together. A monster GPU waiting for a slow CPU and viceversa, is like burning money. Unfortunately this strongly depends on the games one plays. Some are more heavy on CPU, some more on GPU. Nowerdays normally the CPU pulls the brake (from a actual mid-class GPU on and games only make use of a limited ammount of cores), but with VR (or 4k gaming or raytracing), the GPU is very important, too.
Unfortunately VaM 1.x puts all of this theories upside down. It can be very performance hungry like anything else, but can't make the full use of your hardware.
It will be a completely other pair of shoes, if we finally will have VaM 2.x.

 

[MacGruber]

I'm putting out a 50-100$ commission for a "Benchmark Scene". The idea is a dedicated free scene everyone can use to measure VaM performance, enforcing identical settings via plugin, so results are actually comparable. Details here:

50-100$ commission for "Benchmark Scene"

As a side project, I was looking at PC components for upgrading my old machine. That made me browse through various forum threads on the Hub discussing FPS in VaM. Everyone is posting random FPS values, but barely anybody shares which exact settings and scene was used. But those differences can...

hub.virtamate.com

 

[keycode]

Yes, please! Do one benchmark scene, but with some nice effects to stress the users hardware a bit more, so we would see some differences. With your reputation, that one could grow to a real standard.

Heat! A very good educated guess, that I hadn't in mind. Yes, heat is a big issue for many systems, but many users don't pay enough attention to this. Heat is one of the issues, why a gaming Laptop could never reach the level of a tower system, or why many high power builds can't reach the full potential. With my 6 years old overclocked 4790k and my old overclocked 980ti, I could stay (very) warm at winter without a radiator while playing VaM. I have needed seven big fans on high speed to blow out the hot air, roaring like a quadcopter drone in front of me while running a bit more demanding VaM scene. After that experience, my new build now has a full watercooling loop with two full sized radiators.
So a 3080ti will easily use 220W and more, creating a corresponding ammount of heat, those heat has to be cooled down. Not comparable to a relatively harmless 2070.

yes... agree on 100% ... by water or by air, but heat must be dispersed one way or another. So now we can warm our room with probably less parossistic noise (during vam sessions) with pumping liquid and probably using same number of fans (considering even those blowing air on the "aquarium" heatsink ... and I was seeing that besides Arctic co. providing it with a micro ridiculous and noisy fan, nobody was caring about that poor baby mini pump controller circuits ).

When choosing risking to carry on without liquids and without delicate micro-pumps, we need just a good case and good fans to get near the same result (temps and noise) as with those beautiful overestimed plumber tubes running water on our precious hardware (just check that NH-U12A (noctua.at) little monster... actually I use the same 2 fans for my cheap beloved Arctic tower with full satisfaction).
I see becoming average standard in the market wonderful cases badly filtered or totally dust vacuum ready with rainbow led lights and solid tempered glasses blocking 90% air flux for the front in-take and for that essential back hole always with an idiot-fingers-proof grill for spaghetti standing a lot of steel just some millimeters from the out- take air flux, disturbing the most important heat dispersion in a desktop case and creating a lot of turbulence noise.
Probably this is why so a lot of age of "acquarium" pumps for deskt. pc are sold. Sorry for my sarcastic talk about pumps, but I was testing the difference between a clean Noctua fan working practically on free air and the same austrian chocolate jewel prisoner behind a metal grill reducing for a tragic great % its good job for keeping heat safe my hardware... and last but not least, the huge difference when wisely calibrating all fans PWM speeds with BIOS settings.
Just touching (isn't it so empyric or so unprofessional ... ?!?!) with one hand that side panel (the one so near our GPU body) of a pc desktop, open mind modest people could feel the "hot" difference between a correct internal air flux (that small panel area is relatively cold) and a totally harmful air dynamic, directly involving even the expensive big wonderful monster graphic card with the own cooling system obliged to fight with a critic random turbulence if the in-take flux instead of helping, it becomes a problem (then simply on touch we can feel side panel near the gpu always very hot even a long time after closing apps and so limiting max power, with gpu in idle ).
ps: long live cheap good old ugly meshed (sic ...et simpliciter!) front case panels.

 

[keycode]

 

[keycode]

yes.. I can't absolutely feel proud with the poor look of my old bastard case, but after cutting away around one kg of crap metal (hard disk fix internal coffin included and front dvd and fans grill included + out-take grills with those standard ugly holes for draining spaghetti) it was becoming the best friend of my blessed Noctua fans.

 

[keycode]

 

[TToby]

@keycode You are absolutely right. A good old well proportioned air cooling in an open pc case is always better than a bad water cooling in a closed case. Water cooling is no miracle tool, that will make the heat dissapear into nirvana. It is only a bit better in leading/spreading the heat away from your components.
I would not recommend water cooling for everyone, exept you know exactly what you do, or if you have too much money to burn for only the look. With one exeption: If you are doing excessive overclocking or owning a GPU with jawdropping northpolemelting 300+ Watts TBP. Those stupid GPUs like my 6900xt or an 3080/90 are doing a very good job with VR and high resolutions, but putting out heat like almost nothing else in the history of PC.
I only care a little about the "danger" having water in the same case with my hardware. In theory, destillated water is nonconductive and modern pipes and fittings are very save to use.
Like you, I had to cut additional holes in my (relatively small) PC case, too. A good airflow is the most important thing. A "silent" PC case is most of the time also a closed case... But with a good "air managment", an open case and water cooling, I am able to run my seven case fans at 30-50% less speed, which is much more silent than using a so called "silent case". Water cooling means much work and extra money to spend. I only did this, because I had my old hybride cooled VR PC roaring like a quadcopter drone for 5 years and couldn't/wouldn't stand this any longer with my new PC.

 

[keycode]

agree with all (I had no doubt in merit of your specific cooling management and I respect a lot your clear straight opinions in your vam posts ) ...

even if I think for some young led-addict guys can be not so clear that "case open" meaning ... Even for an "open" desktop case the sealing of each wide/minimal part of the case besides fan holes (always with good dust filters!) should be a first priority ...
eventually with the (magnetic) corsair 140mm air filters for both the front in-take and even for that shit (ABSOLUTELY NOT RECOMMENDED but for me very useful) little window I was cutting away from the side transparent plexiglass of my poor 5 years and two Intel generations old CoolerMaster ...

With this horror last cut I was indeed risking to break it all so that really the poor case could after well be defined "open" (even using hot temp cutter I was near to ruin it... that plexiglass is a real fragile bastard material, we can forget using normal instruments besides laser, maybe..!!)

 

[keycode]

I use my pc as source for listening music and so... it was a hell of collecting fans before I was installing my first Noctua ... the best for silent and powerful efficiency, absolutely mute with that incredibly bothersome at low RPM (for my still very good hearing ) pulse modulation noise (similar to a clock mechanic). I was keeping only a very nice corsair ML 140mm, but only after a very very stressing long testing with PWM options in my bios... when I was near to save it in the cupboard forever. No problems with Noctua but finally, me too, I have at least one beautiful mit led light fan in my case austrian family

 

[TToby]

Yes, "open case" doesn't mean a case being open! Thank you for mentioning that!

But saying this... if someone is experiencing heat issues, open up the lid of his shitty expensive closed case may be his only short-therm solution. Many "professional" overclockers don't use cases anymore. They are using an open cage or even only a backplate to screw on their components, usually with no dust filters to not loose any small amount of air pressure.
Dust filtering is an important, but also dangerous thing. I am doing PC stuff for most of my life and I have seen damaged office PCs filled with 10cm thick "pads" of dust. This was before PCs had glass walls. But those old PCs had usually only a very weak airflow. The more airflow you have, the more dust you will suck in, but also the more dust you will usually spit out at the other side (if done right).
If some people (not you!) are putting dust filters in front of the intakes or even the outtakes, those filters will be sealed over time with dust and will kill the airflow. If they don't (with those completely open overclocker cases, for instance), dust will maybe invisibly seal the insides of radiators or heatsinks over time.
In both cases, frequent mainteinance is important, but many users don't do this. While getting out the dust of the heat sinks or radiators is a nasty time consumpting work and more dangerous, because you can't see it directly, dust filters have to be cleaned much more often. So I think both sides have their pro and cons. I was like you, strictly keeping out the dust, but nowerdays I am a bit more relaxed about this.

For my old and somewhat small 2 chamber PC case, I was thinking about cutting the plexy glass wall, too.
At the end I cut out the bottom panel, crated a somewhat nice 3d printed frame and put two additional intake fans onto this. This was becoming neccessary, because I decided to blow out the hot air from both of my radiators directly out of the case and was left with (for my taste) too few intake options. Because of water cooling, I have no GPU fans anymore. I like to tinker around with stuff like this, so this was more fun than an issue.

Yes, Noctua fans are realy nice, but expensive. I was thinking about that and then I decided to go the other route of having more, but slow (=silent) turning fans. In the end, both routes may end in the same amount of money, lol.

P.S.: I really have a genuine aquarium pump in my PC

 

[keycode]

.... [....]
P.S.: I really have a genuine aquarium pump in my PC

I must say I was thinking I was crazy about my old-school nostalgia about vent holes for a side case panel... glad there is still someone regretting this really antique expedient (since long time they prefere the aesthetics instead... or more probable, just to save work in any project standards) .

..and the foolish intention was really to try putting there an external fan too... then when I was seeing the first "crack" in the plexiglass.. my ugly flintstone ambition became immediately resized and I was lucky to realize that crazy shit vent hole and even more when I was "making" those four holes for keeping the filter with screws and some adhesive... for that corsair "magnetic" filter (my ass!) on that material . The whole result was a horror as you can see... but it helps a little to balance some air in that really critic hot point between the top of gpu body and the cpu cooler.
I was also putting like you did a 140mm fan on the bottom in-take ... but my actual cpu is not so difficult to keep at low temp (even with my cheap modified Arctic) ...that i7 10700 is even more kind than my old 7700. And to clean always dust from the bottom filter of my case was not worth even considering the little benefit (mostly for the Intel chipset of my motherboard: large, with a very wide nice heatsink, but 90% covered by the beast size of my 3070 suprim, the same big as a 3090).

Anyway ... I am really happy for you that you were not trying to cut your precious plexiglass ... even if probably you could use better method and instruments than me (I was making hot on the fire a normal cutter blade, being sure it was a good alternative, my only home-ready solution).
Even with all the precautions, even keeping linear on a flat plan the fucking panel ... I can say that I was a lot lucky, and after some minutes that I was damning myself, I was stopping at the crucial sound of a very limited break in the material (my sin, RIP, is still covered by the corsair filter frame ) .

 

[TToby]

I don't think it looks ugly. I hate most GPUs blowing out the heat sideways in the most unfavorable directions.

 

[LooksHunter]

I was away for a while, and I'm catching up on stuff here. From what I have read so far heat indeed popped up as a big issue, which is also the most noticeable change for me after changing from 1070 to 3080ti. My room is very small and not ventilated, my current solution was to remove the glass panel and directing my big room fan directly at the machine. It was suggested to me that in my scenario it would be better to forego water or other advanced ways of cooling for the sake of some higher grade air conditioner, my boss suggested that to me and I wait for a link from him. Logic is that I can treat my entire room as a pc case (talk about immersion lol) and get rid of heat altogether, cooling not only my pc, but also making my space comfortable, because right now it feels Iike a sauna. I'm however not sure how smart that actually is. I would probably still need to invest in a proper pc cooling eventually, but as Toby said the pc does not work in a vacuum, the air must go somewhere after all.

Edit: a photo of my current solution. Not the most professional, lmao.

 

[TToby]

@LooksHunter I know your situation very well. My VR-room is somewhat small, too, because my wife doesn't let me occupy one of the bigger rooms! lol. Maybe 2,5 x 3 meters. It is getting very hot in summer, and Germany is really not like Death Valley at all. Most of the time, open up the window will help a lot. Like you said, the air for cooling your PC can only be as cold as your room, but most of the time it is cold enough. If you will ever reach 75 degrees celsius in your room, it would be time to start panicking.
Though, having such a hot rom is not comfortable and maybe your case fans would get a bit hysterical trying to suck in cold air that isn't there. If you are really thinking about a expensive full Air Condition for your room, you maybe want to take a look at external cooling solitions.That are eighter small external ACs only for your PC, or, a bit ceaper, a separate case with an watercooling pump, some fans and some radiators. You can build the later for yourself, too. In both cases you can theoretically put them in the other room, with two flexible tubes drilled through the wall.

 

[LooksHunter]

Would be hard to do in my situation. The room is like 2.5m square, and I rent it, so I can't really go wild with drilling holes. Good news is sometime next year I will switch to a much bigger room in the same house, so it will be automatically better. I'm looking for a portable solution, my boss said his friend have like a box he once brought to a big Lan party where everybody was sweating and in like 30 minutes the room was cool like an office. I have to pressure him into finally sending him the link, as I can't really visualise how this might look like, if it uses some tubes or not. It seems like a decent idea since the price would match a proper water cooling solution, plus if I go water cooling route I would need to drag my pc to my local trusted pc shop and pay extra for the staff to install that for me, I don't trust myself with running water through my system. Building my rig was challenging as it was, as a lot changed since early 00s lol